New oil control solution for Race/ORR/SC/Stroker/GTS/GT/CS/SE/S4/S3 928 Engines
05-12-2011 | 11:03 AM
#211
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Shenandoah, TX
What are the typical service intervals for these belt driven pumps and parts/$ required? Probably a minor issue for the race guys given that their yearly running time can be measured in hours - for the street guys (especially daily drivers) this could be a determining factor in adopting a scavenge system.
05-12-2011 | 12:14 PM
#212
Drifting
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From: lawrence,kansas
Since overall oil control design , even on stroker engines , has not changed until recently....does this explain why a newly built stroker was still expected to go through 1 quart every 1500 miles ..?
I will report back to the group oil usage in the fall after some hard summer racing....
Andy
I will report back to the group oil usage in the fall after some hard summer racing....
Andy
05-12-2011 | 12:27 PM
#213
Chronic Tool Dropper
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What are the typical service intervals for these belt driven pumps and parts/$ required? Probably a minor issue for the race guys given that their yearly running time can be measured in hours - for the street guys (especially daily drivers) this could be a determining factor in adopting a scavenge system.
05-12-2011 | 02:39 PM
#214
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Anaheim
Gregg,
http://www.daileyengineering.com/oil_pumps.htm
If you change the pump pulley to a CNC machined one that is offset and shaped like a bell, you should be able to maintain the same relative belt and pump support bracket placement but gain the ability to move the stages forward (moving into the interior of the bell shaped pulley) and thereby gain enough room to be able to install a Dailey deaerator without contacting the manifold. Bill Dailey should be able to help with the specifics.
Hope this helps further enhance your already excellent product.
http://www.daileyengineering.com/oil_pumps.htm
If you change the pump pulley to a CNC machined one that is offset and shaped like a bell, you should be able to maintain the same relative belt and pump support bracket placement but gain the ability to move the stages forward (moving into the interior of the bell shaped pulley) and thereby gain enough room to be able to install a Dailey deaerator without contacting the manifold. Bill Dailey should be able to help with the specifics.
Hope this helps further enhance your already excellent product.
Bill and I went down this road, at length.
The problem was: What would I do with the two separate "mixtures" after running them through the deaerator? The Dailey deaerator separates a percentage of the air from the oil, but then you then have a column of air that is not competely oil free and a column of oil that is not air free....two -12 hoses that need to have something done with them.
Bill says that both of these "separated mixtures" need to go back to a dry sump tank....that they are still mixtures, but have "started" separation process, however they still need to be completely separated.
Besides that, even with the offset pulley, there isn't enough room. The pump we are running doesn't look like the pump in the picture...that's purely a "dummy" information picture....for you-know-who.
Appreciate your suggestion....note that I'm not looking to "improve" this system...it works perfectly, just like it is.
I'm moving on to the "next" thing on my 928 list. This problem is:
Solved.
Finished.
05-12-2011 | 02:46 PM
#215
Racer
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Had a related discussion with Greg on this part way through the development process, and he said it is a non-issue. My concern was the ability to operat with varying foam densities, like lots of oil sometimes and dry for extended periods of 'normal' driving. It was considered in the pump design. The actual implementation inside the pump is very cool.
Lots of ways to skin a cat.
That took minutes and minutes of my time.
Last edited by Kevin Johnson; 05-12-2011 at 03:15 PM.
05-12-2011 | 02:53 PM
#216
Racer
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Yes, you could make a less bulky self-priming/lubing deaerating design by using patent 4480970 in combination with patent 5004407. The latter may be expiring this year so Dailey would be well advised to jump on it. Just prime/lube it from the sump with a secondary tube inside the discharge pipe.
Lots of ways to skin a cat.
Lots of ways to skin a cat.
6,811,383
05-12-2011 | 02:57 PM
#217
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From: Anaheim
Since overall oil control design , even on stroker engines , has not changed until recently....does this explain why a newly built stroker was still expected to go through 1 quart every 1500 miles ..?
I will report back to the group oil usage in the fall after some hard summer racing....
Andy
I will report back to the group oil usage in the fall after some hard summer racing....
Andy
They use more oil when you run them hard.
It's the nature of the beast.
Rob's is a stroker. He left here with the crankcase slightly "overfull", by mistake. It still only used 2/10 of a quart in 1000 miles. Prior to this, it was using a quart every 800 miles, or so. It came back slightly overfull, BTW.
He wasn't driving it like a maniac, but he wasn't going 65 in the slow lane, either.
No oil going into the intake is just a "side" benefit of what we've done, here.
05-12-2011 | 03:04 PM
#218
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During the stroker build (and the recent scavenge install) I figured I was qualified to put oil back in the motor. 
I must have missed the lesson about the effects of the pan spacer on the oil level on the dipstick. Dunce cap for me...... If anything I probably worsened the windage situation during the first 2500 miles and the SITP trip by having the sump overfilled.
I must have missed the lesson about the effects of the pan spacer on the oil level on the dipstick. Dunce cap for me...... If anything I probably worsened the windage situation during the first 2500 miles and the SITP trip by having the sump overfilled.
05-12-2011 | 03:07 PM
#219
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
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Engines use oil.
They use more oil when you run them hard.
It's the nature of the beast.
Rob's is a stroker. He left here with the crankcase slightly "overfull", by mistake. It still only used 2/10 of a quart in 1000 miles. Prior to this, it was using a quart every 800 miles, or so. It came back slightly overfull, BTW.
He wasn't driving it like a maniac, but he wasn't going 65 in the slow lane, either.
No oil going into the intake is just a "side" benefit of what we've done, here.
They use more oil when you run them hard.
It's the nature of the beast.
Rob's is a stroker. He left here with the crankcase slightly "overfull", by mistake. It still only used 2/10 of a quart in 1000 miles. Prior to this, it was using a quart every 800 miles, or so. It came back slightly overfull, BTW.
He wasn't driving it like a maniac, but he wasn't going 65 in the slow lane, either.
No oil going into the intake is just a "side" benefit of what we've done, here.
They aerate the oil more when you run them hard.
It's the nature of the beast.
SAE 940792, from 17 years ago, by FEV Motorentechnik.
05-12-2011 | 03:18 PM
#220
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During the stroker build (and the recent scavenge install) I figured I was qualified to put oil back in the motor. I must have missed the lesson about the effects of the pan spacer on the oil level on the dipstick. Dunce cap for me...... If anything I probably worsened the windage situation during the first 2500 miles and the SITP trip by having the sump overfilled.
I must have missed the lesson about the effects of the pan spacer on the oil level on the dipstick. Dunce cap for me...... If anything I probably worsened the windage situation during the first 2500 miles and the SITP trip by having the sump overfilled.
05-12-2011 | 03:40 PM
#222
Electron Wrangler
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I think certainly part of the initial problem of the heads filling is that Porsche uses significant crank breathing out of the heads - moreso with the later cars & I'm not sure that was a good direction.
Switching the crankcase breathing to be wholely out of the main block vent (or extra crank vents) seems like it at least ensures that whatever blow-by that occurs is neutral to the oil drain back flow. Seems this can only help with oil drainback.
Getting enough breathing and seperation after that provides lots of options for how to proceed - but I think thats the important first step.
Seems to me the initial case mentioned of venting all the head breather ports to the airbox would create even more contrary blow-by flow than in the stock case...
Alan
Switching the crankcase breathing to be wholely out of the main block vent (or extra crank vents) seems like it at least ensures that whatever blow-by that occurs is neutral to the oil drain back flow. Seems this can only help with oil drainback.
Getting enough breathing and seperation after that provides lots of options for how to proceed - but I think thats the important first step.
Seems to me the initial case mentioned of venting all the head breather ports to the airbox would create even more contrary blow-by flow than in the stock case...
Alan
Last edited by Alan; 05-12-2011 at 05:25 PM.
05-12-2011 | 04:44 PM
#223
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If you're going roadracing, better to remove the whole assembly and use aftermarket windage control. For the street and stock level drag racing cutting the chain is fine. For the earlier 2.4 without the oil passages in the pan rail, reusing the stock gasket is probably fine. For the SRT4 type pan it would be advisable to put a new one in. Watch that you don't get one sans the integrated scraper. Mopar pulled that with the earlier 2.4 gasket that had both scrapers and a mini-tray. Expensive to make apparently.
05-12-2011 | 05:40 PM
#224
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Did you block off the line that runs from the oil filler neck, under the intake, and back into the rubber boot under the MAF? (also tied into the passenger cam cover vent..and part of the PCV system). Seems if you are running the oil scavenge pump, it'll create a vacuum on the crankcase...and reversing the flow that normally went back into the intake?
05-12-2011 | 07:05 PM
#225
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From: saratoga, ca
Im not mocking or nay-saying. Just wondering. why have my cars all survived running, even more Gs than anderson did in his hay-day in the late 90s and early 2000s? There is got to be a logical reason, besides luck. No one races the 928 more than me. you see the videos, im hitting the revlimiter on near every shift. 1:36.1 at lagua seca on DOTs. Anderson with your first 420rwhp stroker and DOTs ran 1:40.1 in 1999. so, what is different? oil brand? 
I think I've done all I can do here. I've explained the problems I've seen with the 928 engine and discussed what I did to cure them. I've addressed the misconceptions that people have about the testing and the development of this system. I'm just trying to "move" 928 engine development forward....as always.
There are always going to be "naysayers" about anything one does. Some of the motives of the "naysayers" are obvious. Some are just being silly. All are predictable, when you stop and think about the people and their agenda. It's just a part of life.
This project has been interesting and I learned a bunch about the 928 oiling problems...which I previously thought I had a pretty good handle on. Thanks have to go to Andy, for being patient while I worked through the oiling problem we saw on the dyno.
Now it is time to move on to the next project.
Have fun!
There are always going to be "naysayers" about anything one does. Some of the motives of the "naysayers" are obvious. Some are just being silly. All are predictable, when you stop and think about the people and their agenda. It's just a part of life.
This project has been interesting and I learned a bunch about the 928 oiling problems...which I previously thought I had a pretty good handle on. Thanks have to go to Andy, for being patient while I worked through the oiling problem we saw on the dyno.
Now it is time to move on to the next project.
Have fun!
There are always naysayers, disbelievers, those who blindly follow and even more who simply ask questions to further understand the situation and solution.
Many times those in the last group are incorrectly lumped in with the first two.
The 928 32V engine does not have a proper air / oil separator from the factory. I'll forever be baffled by this since the 16V engines have a rather nice, and simple unit from the factory. The 16V unit may not be perfect, it's better than nothing. The little screen over the vent hole appears to accomplish very little on the 32V cars.
All engines have oil mixed in with the crankcase fumes exiting the engine. Even my SAAB has a nice separator after the valve cover that drains into the sump (from the factory).
The 928 is unique with its intake layout making a 90 degree sweep straight up into the TB. If my SAAB, VW, or my Audi's had a similar setup, I would find oil pooled up in their intakes too.
There are known benefits to drawing vacuum on the crankcase. Many in the past have tried various ways to accomplish this. Some have used the stock air pump, others the exhaust, and some with aftermarket pumps. All with mixed results for reasons not worth going into here.
Greg has come up with a nice solution to both.
There is one part of this setup (and the stock system) I'm still wondering about. Most (maybe all) modern engines have a provision for allowing fresh air to enter the crankcase somewhere. This flow of fresh air helps flush the vapors out of the crankcase, reduce crankcase pressure, and other benefits.
This is where PCV valves come into the picture on most vehicles. I’m not familiar enough with the 32V engines to know how this applies.
IMO the discussions about oil pooling in the heads, oil starvation to the bearings, windage from the crank etc....... are all secondary. Bottom line is there are benefits from a proper air / oil separator and additional crank case vacuum regardless of these issues.
Many times those in the last group are incorrectly lumped in with the first two.
The 928 32V engine does not have a proper air / oil separator from the factory. I'll forever be baffled by this since the 16V engines have a rather nice, and simple unit from the factory. The 16V unit may not be perfect, it's better than nothing. The little screen over the vent hole appears to accomplish very little on the 32V cars.
All engines have oil mixed in with the crankcase fumes exiting the engine. Even my SAAB has a nice separator after the valve cover that drains into the sump (from the factory).
The 928 is unique with its intake layout making a 90 degree sweep straight up into the TB. If my SAAB, VW, or my Audi's had a similar setup, I would find oil pooled up in their intakes too.
There are known benefits to drawing vacuum on the crankcase. Many in the past have tried various ways to accomplish this. Some have used the stock air pump, others the exhaust, and some with aftermarket pumps. All with mixed results for reasons not worth going into here.
Greg has come up with a nice solution to both.
There is one part of this setup (and the stock system) I'm still wondering about. Most (maybe all) modern engines have a provision for allowing fresh air to enter the crankcase somewhere. This flow of fresh air helps flush the vapors out of the crankcase, reduce crankcase pressure, and other benefits.
This is where PCV valves come into the picture on most vehicles. I’m not familiar enough with the 32V engines to know how this applies.
IMO the discussions about oil pooling in the heads, oil starvation to the bearings, windage from the crank etc....... are all secondary. Bottom line is there are benefits from a proper air / oil separator and additional crank case vacuum regardless of these issues.