early dyno results
02-04-2011, 11:01 PM
#46
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Hey M.
When you have sequential fuel on the engine, each cylinder will get its own squirt - we know that. The reference that I made is that when each cylinder is in need of a slightly different fuel map, such as in a moderate length runner single-plenum individual runner application like this:
http://www.erik27.com/todd/turbo/index.htm
Some cylinders may need more fuel than others in certain loads and rpm ranges, and less in others.
As far as I know, there is a map for this cylinder trimming, but it is via a percentage change over the entire rev range, and not on a load/rpm form.
If you look in the software we can find this out. When my friend todd (who does the work in the pictures I posted) asked the VIPEC and LINK guys last year, that was the answer he got.
When you have sequential fuel on the engine, each cylinder will get its own squirt - we know that. The reference that I made is that when each cylinder is in need of a slightly different fuel map, such as in a moderate length runner single-plenum individual runner application like this:
http://www.erik27.com/todd/turbo/index.htm
Some cylinders may need more fuel than others in certain loads and rpm ranges, and less in others.
As far as I know, there is a map for this cylinder trimming, but it is via a percentage change over the entire rev range, and not on a load/rpm form.
If you look in the software we can find this out. When my friend todd (who does the work in the pictures I posted) asked the VIPEC and LINK guys last year, that was the answer he got.
That scares me just to think about it. By the time I'd get that done, the engine would be dog tired from being run on the dyno and need a rebuild....and then the requirements would be all different.
We were running each rpm/load for over a minute to get the mixtures dialed in. The plan was to go back, after that, and dial in the timing. Then finally, we were going to adjust the fuel for the final timing map. It was already getting late and I had a few things that I wanted to "upgrade", so we stopped.
That's a whole bunch of running on the dyno. If I had to individually tune each cylinder, through the rpm range, and then go back an fix the main table to compensate for those changes....it would be a very long/expensive dyno session.
The last 962 engine they tuned with the Link system used 70 gallons of fuel to map. Hell, that's probably beyond the life expectancy of the engine...
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
02-04-2011, 11:13 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
When an experienced engine builder thinks back to the most satisfying engines they worked with, it's not the big peak hp ones that come to mind. It's the ones that were well designed to deliver a good torque curve where actually used. These are the engines that win races over bigger hp ones and on street cars they are the engines that push you back in the seat with a grin because it feels stronger than you would think possible.
I believe this engine is going to be one of those. If Greg wasn't happy he knows his cam guy will replace cams until he is. Now, if you ever want to impress MK and the internets with a hp number, I'm sure something could be done
02-04-2011, 11:13 PM
#48
Nordschleife Master
In my opinion individual cyl trimming is only really needed on something like F1. Other than that, not worth the headache/hassle.
Greg,
Do you tune the cruise area as well. And if so, what AFR are you targeting for that area?
Looks amazing guys.
Oh, you have the oil cooler hooked up backwards....
I use those all the time, oil should go in the side, water on the end. And do not exceed 150PSI!
Greg,
Do you tune the cruise area as well. And if so, what AFR are you targeting for that area?
Looks amazing guys.
Oh, you have the oil cooler hooked up backwards....
I use those all the time, oil should go in the side, water on the end. And do not exceed 150PSI!
02-04-2011, 11:15 PM
#49
Not sure if it has that feature, or not. Hopefully, the indiviual cylinders will be close enough to not need to be tuned individually.
That scares me just to think about it. By the time I'd get that done, the engine would be dog tired from being run on the dyno and need a rebuild....and then the requirements would be all different.
We were running each rpm/load for over a minute to get the mixtures dialed in. The plan was to go back, after that, and dial in the timing. Then finally, we were going to adjust the fuel for the final timing map. It was already getting late and I had a few things that I wanted to "upgrade", so we stopped.
That's a whole bunch of running on the dyno. If I had to individually tune each cylinder, through the rpm range, and then go back an fix the main table to compensate for those changes....it would be a very long/expensive dyno session.
The last 962 engine they tuned with the Link system used 70 gallons of fuel to map. Hell, that's probably beyond the life expectancy of the engine...
That scares me just to think about it. By the time I'd get that done, the engine would be dog tired from being run on the dyno and need a rebuild....and then the requirements would be all different.
We were running each rpm/load for over a minute to get the mixtures dialed in. The plan was to go back, after that, and dial in the timing. Then finally, we were going to adjust the fuel for the final timing map. It was already getting late and I had a few things that I wanted to "upgrade", so we stopped.
That's a whole bunch of running on the dyno. If I had to individually tune each cylinder, through the rpm range, and then go back an fix the main table to compensate for those changes....it would be a very long/expensive dyno session.
The last 962 engine they tuned with the Link system used 70 gallons of fuel to map. Hell, that's probably beyond the life expectancy of the engine...
In certain parameters it seems like it could be a safety issue.
I will be getting a ECU box that is able to do this, but with ethanol the margin of error is increased. Somewhere between rich and pig rich seems to work just fine for the motors I have seen.
Is it more expensive to run an engine on an engine dyno than it is for a chassis dyno over the long run?
02-04-2011, 11:17 PM
#50
As I said, the parameters in which the differences were found, and the way they were solved are somewhat on the extreme end of our spectrum. It DID improve power, and it DID increase the safety margins of the engine, so its something I would want to investigate.
02-04-2011, 11:27 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
It would be nice to have individual cylinder data during tuning, I find that a heat gun pointed at header tubes is helpful for finding dead cylinders that are common during initial tuning from fouled plugs. Well at least common for rank amateurs anyway
02-04-2011, 11:30 PM
#52
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You know, there are folks, actually quite a few folks that can and do work on 928's, we can make them run and sometimes make them slightly better.
Then you have just one Greg Brown, the level of workmanship, attention to detail and his knowledge of how to make RELIABLE power suggest, to me any way that he must be a mechanic from the same planet that Einstein was from and he brought a machinist named Simard along with him.
Just freaking incredible.
To make that amount of power on a shake down dyno run is making 928 driveline parts tremble.
I am not going to guess how much is left on the table, but it is a considerable number.
Just think how much he could make as a "Lets show the internet" on a flash run with race gas and a ton of timing and tricks.
Have no doubt, this is a serious, high power motor, that will live on a race track.
This is industrial art to me.
Stunning.
Then you have just one Greg Brown, the level of workmanship, attention to detail and his knowledge of how to make RELIABLE power suggest, to me any way that he must be a mechanic from the same planet that Einstein was from and he brought a machinist named Simard along with him.
Just freaking incredible.
To make that amount of power on a shake down dyno run is making 928 driveline parts tremble.
I am not going to guess how much is left on the table, but it is a considerable number.
Just think how much he could make as a "Lets show the internet" on a flash run with race gas and a ton of timing and tricks.
Have no doubt, this is a serious, high power motor, that will live on a race track.
This is industrial art to me.
Stunning.
02-04-2011, 11:42 PM
#53
BC,
I know the system has 8 trim maps for all 8 Cyl. These can be set up for any axis value you want. RPM v Load, or Temperature or whatever you choose. I have this system on my 2 engines in my boat, and each outside bank run cooler than the inside banks due to the water cooling in the Xhaust systems. We use all 8 maps. Actually, if I remember, the software allows for any cylinder to look at any one of the 8 maps instead of having its own. This is how mine is mapped. The outside cylinders are trimmed on 1 map and the inside cylinders are trimmed on their own. We measure the EGt's and trim to them. The main fuel tables look after the manifolding differences and I think its out to 6 times the base fuel map. Boats are alot harder than cars.
I know the system has 8 trim maps for all 8 Cyl. These can be set up for any axis value you want. RPM v Load, or Temperature or whatever you choose. I have this system on my 2 engines in my boat, and each outside bank run cooler than the inside banks due to the water cooling in the Xhaust systems. We use all 8 maps. Actually, if I remember, the software allows for any cylinder to look at any one of the 8 maps instead of having its own. This is how mine is mapped. The outside cylinders are trimmed on 1 map and the inside cylinders are trimmed on their own. We measure the EGt's and trim to them. The main fuel tables look after the manifolding differences and I think its out to 6 times the base fuel map. Boats are alot harder than cars.
02-04-2011, 11:51 PM
#54
Watching the video I think you can see the fuel been changed from rich to lean and the torque responding. I think the middle blue scale is the fuel ratio. Watch the fuel been made rich first and the torque drops off, then its slowly made leaner anbd the torque gets better. Greg would know for sure, but it does look like its the fuel been changed.
02-05-2011, 12:01 AM
#55
I keep watching the video. Just amazing. Greg, well done. You built a great engine. You seem to know the tuning very well also. The engine sounds really great.
Hey, I once made 1000HP on a chassis dyno with my boat! Then I put in back on the trailer, pumped up the 6 tires and made another 200HP.
Hey, I once made 1000HP on a chassis dyno with my boat! Then I put in back on the trailer, pumped up the 6 tires and made another 200HP.
02-05-2011, 01:29 AM
#56
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Watching the video I think you can see the fuel been changed from rich to lean and the torque responding. I think the middle blue scale is the fuel ratio. Watch the fuel been made rich first and the torque drops off, then its slowly made leaner anbd the torque gets better. Greg would know for sure, but it does look like its the fuel been changed.
02-05-2011, 02:07 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
I hear what you are saying, but a dynojet 248e is a dyno with huge rotating mass drums Either you rotate it at a certain rate, or you dont. its simple physics, and the HP is very true and repeatable. (as long as the monkey's can tie down a car without too much difference in tension) I've used one dynojet for 11 years now, never being surprised and often seeing near idential results, end to end on the graphs. Sure, folks can play with correction factors, but I use both actual and adjusted, twice a year (winter and summer) and they have neve varied more than a few HP with no changes. Now, you start going from 248e, and all bets are off.
Now, I also hear you about he pride of a lower hp, better designed and built NA engine, beating up on higher hp supercharged kit engines, but com'mon, unless the 200hp differential is really inflated, no one with 400hp is not going to run around any 600hp engine, unless they are lying about the dyno run.
The only time I saw someone with less hp run around someone with more hp was when anderson ran away from 911 designs 996 TT monster, but then again, remember the exhaust contraptions? I think the turbos were hurt more at Laguna that day.
Hey, Im very impressed with the engine build. It looks like something NASA would build. a sharp contrast to what im used to looking at, as amazing as my engines performance has been. But when done right, this is what it looks like. Your engines will make big HP and be dependable, and repeatable. The reason I asked the question, is that with Mark and Joe putting down 510hp, they have had an awesome build up, but they went from average HP for a 6.5 liter to near outstanding by just bolting on a CF intake. (very little tuning)
As I mentioned, if they are putting this down to the rear wheels, there has to be losses in the drivetrain, near 10-15%. that puts them over 600hp at the flywheel. It doesnt make sense, unless the engine dyno has a way of measuring HP that could be less than reality. The only way to really check it out, would to be to run the engine in the car, on a chassis dyno and see what it runs.
Now, back to the engine. Pure ART! Look fowared to seeing it in a 928!
Will this be a track racer?????
By the way, WHEN will we have someone run a CF or ITB intake on a stock 5 liter!! carl has done one, but it was for a blower!
Mk
Now, I also hear you about he pride of a lower hp, better designed and built NA engine, beating up on higher hp supercharged kit engines, but com'mon, unless the 200hp differential is really inflated, no one with 400hp is not going to run around any 600hp engine, unless they are lying about the dyno run.
The only time I saw someone with less hp run around someone with more hp was when anderson ran away from 911 designs 996 TT monster, but then again, remember the exhaust contraptions? I think the turbos were hurt more at Laguna that day.
Hey, Im very impressed with the engine build. It looks like something NASA would build. a sharp contrast to what im used to looking at, as amazing as my engines performance has been. But when done right, this is what it looks like. Your engines will make big HP and be dependable, and repeatable. The reason I asked the question, is that with Mark and Joe putting down 510hp, they have had an awesome build up, but they went from average HP for a 6.5 liter to near outstanding by just bolting on a CF intake. (very little tuning)
As I mentioned, if they are putting this down to the rear wheels, there has to be losses in the drivetrain, near 10-15%. that puts them over 600hp at the flywheel. It doesnt make sense, unless the engine dyno has a way of measuring HP that could be less than reality. The only way to really check it out, would to be to run the engine in the car, on a chassis dyno and see what it runs.
Now, back to the engine. Pure ART! Look fowared to seeing it in a 928!
Will this be a track racer?????
By the way, WHEN will we have someone run a CF or ITB intake on a stock 5 liter!! carl has done one, but it was for a blower!
Mk
I have almost zero confidence in any rear wheel dyno results. They can be affected by too many things. I use them only for direct comparisions, on the same day...or in the same week, at worse....and never try to compare results from car to car, much less dyno to dyno.
Heck, even here in Orange County, engine dyno results vary from DTS dyno to DTS dyno by 40 horsepower on a 350 horsepower small block.....what numbers do you want? Take it to a different dyno....you will get what you want to see.
The dyno we are using is absolutely the "tightest" dyno in the area. I like it to be conservative. It's way fun when someone with less power smokes someone with more horsepower.
I've watched too many 600 hp supercharged "rockets" get their door ***** sucked off by 400 horsepower naturally aspirated engines to even count them....and I love it.
Here's the reality: I know what I did to the heads. I know exactly how many CFMs each port will flow. I know exactly how many CFMs both Mark and Joseph's heads flow. It isn't too tough for me to calculate the potential differences/results. It's pretty much just a simple math problem, once you know that information. Running the engine on the dyno is more breaking it in, calibrating the fuel injection, and running experiments.
I was not unhappy with the power results. I was not thrilled with what I saw regarding some of the experiments we were running. I learned more, in that one dyno afternoon, about oiling issues with the 928 engine than I've learned in years....just when you think you know quite a bit and have it all figured out....you find out that you know absolutely nothing.
Enough said.
Heck, even here in Orange County, engine dyno results vary from DTS dyno to DTS dyno by 40 horsepower on a 350 horsepower small block.....what numbers do you want? Take it to a different dyno....you will get what you want to see.
The dyno we are using is absolutely the "tightest" dyno in the area. I like it to be conservative. It's way fun when someone with less power smokes someone with more horsepower.
I've watched too many 600 hp supercharged "rockets" get their door ***** sucked off by 400 horsepower naturally aspirated engines to even count them....and I love it.
Here's the reality: I know what I did to the heads. I know exactly how many CFMs each port will flow. I know exactly how many CFMs both Mark and Joseph's heads flow. It isn't too tough for me to calculate the potential differences/results. It's pretty much just a simple math problem, once you know that information. Running the engine on the dyno is more breaking it in, calibrating the fuel injection, and running experiments.
I was not unhappy with the power results. I was not thrilled with what I saw regarding some of the experiments we were running. I learned more, in that one dyno afternoon, about oiling issues with the 928 engine than I've learned in years....just when you think you know quite a bit and have it all figured out....you find out that you know absolutely nothing.
Enough said.
02-05-2011, 02:52 AM
#58
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I hear what you are saying, but a dynojet 248e is a dyno with huge rotating mass drums Either you rotate it at a certain rate, or you dont. its simple physics, and the HP is very true and repeatable. (as long as the monkey's can tie down a car without too much difference in tension) I've used one dynojet for 11 years now, never being surprised and often seeing near idential results, end to end on the graphs. Sure, folks can play with correction factors, but I use both actual and adjusted, twice a year (winter and summer) and they have neve varied more than a few HP with no changes. Now, you start going from 248e, and all bets are off.
Now, I also hear you about he pride of a lower hp, better designed and built NA engine, beating up on higher hp supercharged kit engines, but com'mon, unless the 200hp differential is really inflated, no one with 400hp is not going to run around any 600hp engine, unless they are lying about the dyno run.
The only time I saw someone with less hp run around someone with more hp was when anderson ran away from 911 designs 996 TT monster, but then again, remember the exhaust contraptions? I think the turbos were hurt more at Laguna that day.
Hey, Im very impressed with the engine build. It looks like something NASA would build. a sharp contrast to what im used to looking at, as amazing as my engines performance has been. But when done right, this is what it looks like. Your engines will make big HP and be dependable, and repeatable. The reason I asked the question, is that with Mark and Joe putting down 510hp, they have had an awesome build up, but they went from average HP for a 6.5 liter to near outstanding by just bolting on a CF intake. (very little tuning)
As I mentioned, if they are putting this down to the rear wheels, there has to be losses in the drivetrain, near 10-15%. that puts them over 600hp at the flywheel. It doesnt make sense, unless the engine dyno has a way of measuring HP that could be less than reality. The only way to really check it out, would to be to run the engine in the car, on a chassis dyno and see what it runs.
Now, back to the engine. Pure ART! Look fowared to seeing it in a 928!
Will this be a track racer?????
By the way, WHEN will we have someone run a CF or ITB intake on a stock 5 liter!! carl has done one, but it was for a blower!
Mk
Now, I also hear you about he pride of a lower hp, better designed and built NA engine, beating up on higher hp supercharged kit engines, but com'mon, unless the 200hp differential is really inflated, no one with 400hp is not going to run around any 600hp engine, unless they are lying about the dyno run.
The only time I saw someone with less hp run around someone with more hp was when anderson ran away from 911 designs 996 TT monster, but then again, remember the exhaust contraptions? I think the turbos were hurt more at Laguna that day.
Hey, Im very impressed with the engine build. It looks like something NASA would build. a sharp contrast to what im used to looking at, as amazing as my engines performance has been. But when done right, this is what it looks like. Your engines will make big HP and be dependable, and repeatable. The reason I asked the question, is that with Mark and Joe putting down 510hp, they have had an awesome build up, but they went from average HP for a 6.5 liter to near outstanding by just bolting on a CF intake. (very little tuning)
As I mentioned, if they are putting this down to the rear wheels, there has to be losses in the drivetrain, near 10-15%. that puts them over 600hp at the flywheel. It doesnt make sense, unless the engine dyno has a way of measuring HP that could be less than reality. The only way to really check it out, would to be to run the engine in the car, on a chassis dyno and see what it runs.
Now, back to the engine. Pure ART! Look fowared to seeing it in a 928!
Will this be a track racer?????
By the way, WHEN will we have someone run a CF or ITB intake on a stock 5 liter!! carl has done one, but it was for a blower!
Mk
ITBs don't make it a race engine.
Street car with automatic transmission. 91 octane fuel.
Mild cams, conservative compression.
More to come.
I'm still happy.
02-05-2011, 03:22 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Love it! ha ha.
Hey, all engines are race engines, race cars have a cage and sticky rubber.
Good race cars are ones that look good, and last more than a few seasons.
So, this is a 928 super car for the street. Cool.
Arent you a bit curious of how the CF intake would work on a stock S4 engine?
mk
02-05-2011, 03:53 AM
#60
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Love it! ha ha.
Hey, all engines are race engines, race cars have a cage and sticky rubber.
Good race cars are ones that look good, and last more than a few seasons.
So, this is a 928 super car for the street. Cool.
Arent you a bit curious of how the CF intake would work on a stock S4 engine?
mk
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but as I recall, this engine made over 400 ft lbs at 2500 rpms....perhaps that was at 3,000....I'll have to go back and look.
At any rate, it has a whole bunch of Kiborts.
