Alan

Sorry Tom - we beat you (and the SoCal brothers) to it... the first "test installations" were in Arizona a few weeks ago. 3 sets of these are already installed and driving the streets here on Rich's GTS, my GTS and Dan's modified S4.

Alan

Jerry Feather

That idea has some merit, Tom, so I will give it some consideration. Let me see how this proposal about SoCal turns out, then I'll be in touch with you.

SteveG

San Diego, Texas, Phoenix, installed, butt charge, not installed, GTS4, S4, GT; Sound reduction, no reduction. I'm just a little confused with all the options.

You've done a yeoman's service here, Jerry; I'm not forgetting that.

What is the price delivered USPS or Greyhound (I'm serious) to NYC for a set for a '93 GTS w/sound reduction? I've been "on the list" from the beginning, but I'm not sure I can afford this at this price.

Tom in Austin

Hey Alan, what's your take on the sound reduction aspect?

Jerry Feather

One of the main reasons for the post that initiated this latest discussion is exactly what Rob is talking about a little below in this thread. The main reason I hope to do some additional installations myself is just for the reason he suggests, and that is so that the kits can be provided in such a way that the owner, with any fabrication skills at all, can do the installation himself. I am pretty sure that is not goig to take place with most owners, but it is still my goal. In fact, the Kits will and do include just about all the tools needed by anyone to do the job himself, except for a drill motor, and maybe even a step drill bit, unless I can find some to include.

I don't think I can provide kits at the present stage, at least I don't know for sure, and have anyone try to tell me what they had to do to get them to fit so that I can make the changes, if any are needed. I am hoping there are not going to be any, but I need to be sure.

Alan

Well honestly I can't say I've noticed a lot of difference - but I didn't really expect to. I had removed my busted GTS liner (on drivers side) and replaced with the 2 part S4 shields from Roger with 3/4" closed cell nitrile foam glued on the backs and had the same 3/4" nitrile foam right across the top of the wheel well too. So for sound it was pretty good before anyway -just didn't look great and probably wouldn't have held up for the long term (over the top). So its at least as good as that was - which was a major improvement over driving without anything.

These do look good, feel good, fit well and are as solid as a rock. I think the 2 part construction is a really good idea - Porsche should have done this - given the PSD service requirements.

Alan

Rob Edwards

Seems to me that you can buy a $950 pair of factory papier-maché-and-chiclets liners, and hope that they don't crack when you look at them, or you can buy these from Jerry for $950. If the product is as good (or in this case better, based on Hebert's anecdote) than what they replace, then the pricing is in the ballpark.

That said, given that my purchased parts usually sit for weeks or months before I find the time to play in the garage, I'd rather wait until there's enough collective installation experience that I can DIMyself. As great as the liners are, they shouldn't require on-site professional installation with the logistical and additional labor hassles that involves.

Jerry Feather

As to the S4s, I did start this development with the S4 version of these Liners with the thought in mind that when that was nearly complete I could simply extrapolate from what I had at that point to the GTS without even having one here to fit to. That, of course didn't work.

I have always had in mind to do these for the GTS primarily since that was what I thought was the factory focus. I later learned that the GT was the first with Liners, and I could probably fairly easily make a set for the 91 GT using the GTS brackets and the S4 outer liner half, but that part of the form still needs some work to correct a problem I discovered working with the outer form for the GTS.

The S4 takes a different set of brackets, at least those before the 91 which have the same mounting points as the GT, and I have not designed the upper right rear bracket yet, mainly because I have not figured out where to mount it. I have a better idea now than I have had for a while, but that is it, just an idea.

Given that there are relatively fewer GTSs, I don't think my reasoning is flawed in putting off the S4 version of these Liners since to do it the other way around could put me off for months doing S4 Liners before I would have finally got to the GTS, and the GTS need still seems to me to be the most important. With the limits put on the GTS market for these by the economics of it, even if I wait until the GTS market dried up, it doesn't look like that will be too long to wait to finish up the S4 version. Then, I really don't expect to wait that long in any case.

I think the S4 version will be available in the near future.

Hilton

Actually all 91's have the liners, S4 and GT.

The problem is that Porsche don't seem to sell a different part number for the 91 cars - so there are cases of 91 owners being sent GTS liners from Porsche, and also GTS owners being sent 91 liners from Porsche.

Jerry Feather

Actually Hilton, it is my theory that the Factory has only been sending pairs of these for quite a while consisting of one liner for the GT and one for the GTS, but both having the GTS part number. I think that may apply to ALL cases not just some of them. And from the reports I have heard I think it is the left one that is or was the GT version of the liner.

I think what might have happened in that someone in the Factory decided that since there are so few of these cars that will be needing these there was no reason to keep what appeared as two sets of whatever the forms were that they made them with, so they decided to just ****-can one of the sets. I think they didn't notice that the two sets of forms were different, and they ended up destroying one form for the GT and one form for the GTS.

Of course none of that did anything to improve on the crap that they were making all of them out of.

You could be correct about the 91 S4s having these. I have just not seen any, although I have seen the two top mounting points in the 91 S4 that are the same as the GT and GTS.

What I meant in my post above that you quoted is that the EARLIER S4s will take a different bracket, and that is the one I still need to design and develop.

DJF1

Jerry,

I think you set the expectation with your initial post on the pricing. It was made very clear by everyone that the factory replacements were considered to be really expensive ( read ridiculous) so I know that myself included some of us feel that pricing of your product at the same price as the factory replacements is surprising and disappointing at the same time. I think we all waited for over 2 years for them to materialize and in my case spend a winter in salty roads without protection waiting for them only to find that cost wise as a package will be more expensive that the factory originals.

I practise revenue management daily in my business and there is a line where your net revenue x demand dictate the pricing. So I personally think that bumping the price to everyone's surprise is not the best strategy, but that is completely your decision and I respect that.

Speaking for myself , seeing that I'm in great urgency to get protection for my PSD, please take me off your list, as even though your product maybe superior, the cost, wait time + labour to install at this point make the factory originals my only option.

Speedtoys

As Ive said before, a soft complex surface on the inside of the liner is what hushes up the road noise.

Rocks hitting the hard plastic liner, and the whoooossssshhhhheee..of air escaping the tire tread can NOT be blocked with a mass loader.

HF sound disruption is well accomplished the way the OEMs are doing it today, which is a soft, felt/wooly type material that the liner is molded from with an epoxy, or adhered to a plastic shell to capture and kill the HF sounds emanating from the well environment.

Mass loading is a low frequency vibration damper..I lined one front liner with felt and spray glue..instantly heard less road noise from the area behind the dead-pedal on my S4. Have not gotten around to expanding the experiment. Cavity stuffing with rock wool behind the liners is the next logical step..waterproof, fireproof, and will drain water.

The mass loader will help some, to deaded the ringing of the plastic body itself, but wont do anything for the HF road noise...it needs captured before the plastic itself.

Alan

I can kind of understand your reaction... However you waited - vs doing what exactly?

Factory original the only option...?? really ?? They essentially don't make them anymore...

Yes you can still buy "them" - but they aren't really a correct fit for anybody - so...? and even if they were - they are still complete crap that will fall apart in a few years.

We said we needed a better product than stock - I think its clear we do actually have that now - but don't want to pay ~about the same money for it? Jerry clearly has struggled to make these work. Its not been simple and those development costs factor in... especially with a potentially really small market...

I think it is a bit expensive but ultimately worth it for a GTS - maybe less so for an S4 depending on value but until somone else steps up with a cheaper product - we dont really have any other good options... only going without or using 2 part early S4 shields.

If you have ever fabricated something while maintaining a high functional & aesthetic standard - its hard - it always costs 2-3X what you first thought it might... and takes 2-3 times longer (at least) thats life.

Don't beat Jerry up for being the one with the ***** to stick with it and make it happen. As he has alluded to - its a hobby business - Jerry himself is the manufacturer - in that model trading lower cost for higher volume is rational only up to a certain point - assuming you have any other things you want to do in your life...

Alan

Randy V

So have we found a lift in So Cal yet?

LA and OC locations would be fine as well as SD, I imagine. I'd have no problem driving an hour or two to get this done, seein' as there really are no other viable options out there in the real world.

Alan

Eh ? What?