Overheating after WP replacement... Place your bets...
10-08-2010, 11:58 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
please answer these questions, yes or no will work...
After installing the new WP did you turn the pulley by hand to see if it spun freely? Not that I can recall
Is the belt tensioned correctly? Yes
Did you remove the thermostat and inspect the rear seal?? No. I didn't disturb the thermostat during the WP replacement
Did you replace the thermostat? No
Did you open the heater to full hot prior to running the engine? No. Do I have an air pocket?
Did you let the engine warm up with the cap off??No, I did not
Did you replace the cap after the fans come on and drive the car with the heater on full hot for about 5 miles and park it let it cool and top up as necessary?Car overheated as I pulled into the driveway after my 5 mile drive... No indication of overheat while at highway speeds.
Can you smell any burning rubber from the vent holes on the cam towers? No hot belt smell, even the last time I ran the car in the garage to check for sensor function. Ran for 5 minutes before getting into the 3rd section of temp gauge
Does the engine temp go to just under the red zone in under 5 minutes at idle?? Yes
Please list all of the parts that you replaced on this job Replaced water pump with Ed's enhanced pump, water pump gasket (installed dry), 5 short WP bolts, TB idler, TB Roller, seal at base of dipstick, seal for radiator drain plug.
After installing the new WP did you turn the pulley by hand to see if it spun freely? Not that I can recall
Is the belt tensioned correctly? Yes
Did you remove the thermostat and inspect the rear seal?? No. I didn't disturb the thermostat during the WP replacement
Did you replace the thermostat? No
Did you open the heater to full hot prior to running the engine? No. Do I have an air pocket?
Did you let the engine warm up with the cap off??No, I did not
Did you replace the cap after the fans come on and drive the car with the heater on full hot for about 5 miles and park it let it cool and top up as necessary?Car overheated as I pulled into the driveway after my 5 mile drive... No indication of overheat while at highway speeds.
Can you smell any burning rubber from the vent holes on the cam towers? No hot belt smell, even the last time I ran the car in the garage to check for sensor function. Ran for 5 minutes before getting into the 3rd section of temp gauge
Does the engine temp go to just under the red zone in under 5 minutes at idle?? Yes
Please list all of the parts that you replaced on this job Replaced water pump with Ed's enhanced pump, water pump gasket (installed dry), 5 short WP bolts, TB idler, TB Roller, seal at base of dipstick, seal for radiator drain plug.
10-09-2010, 12:01 AM
#32
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I just wanted to thank everyone for the great feedback and ideas. This is very, very helpful.
And I wanted to let you know that I won't be able to look at the car again until Monday night. Just didn't want anyone worrying that I wasn't making progress.
Mrmerlin, I'm most interested to hear your thoughts given my responses.
And I wanted to let you know that I won't be able to look at the car again until Monday night. Just didn't want anyone worrying that I wasn't making progress.
Mrmerlin, I'm most interested to hear your thoughts given my responses.
10-09-2010, 12:11 AM
#34
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I think the real question here is does the temp go down once it is hot at highway speeds?
Last edited by blown 87; 10-09-2010 at 12:49 AM.
10-09-2010, 12:17 AM
#35
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Mrmerlin View Post
please answer these questions, yes or no will work...
After installing the new WP did you turn the pulley by hand to see if it spun freely? Not that I can recall. this should have been done to check that the impeller wasnt hitting the block
Is the belt tensioned correctly? Yes,,, Good
Did you remove the thermostat and inspect the rear seal?? No. I didn't disturb the thermostat during the WP replacement....this should have been part of the job so it still needs doing
Did you replace the thermostat? No,.... Replace with the rear seal and a new O ring
Did you open the heater to full hot prior to running the engine? No. Do I have an air pocket? Quite possible that you still dont have enough coolant in the system it should take just about 4 gallons
Did you let the engine warm up with the cap off??No, I did not... To fill the 928 coolant system, fill till the level reaches the seam then run the car with the heater on till the fans come on cap off,
then install the cap drive for about 5 miles with heater on then park it let it cool off then top up as necessary the system is a self bleeding system
Did you replace the cap after the fans come on and drive the car with the heater on full hot for about 5 miles and park it let it cool and top up as necessary? Car overheated as I pulled into the driveway after my 5 mile drive... No indication of overheat while at highway speeds. ... You may need a new coolant bottle cap as well, an old cap will let the system boil over at a lower temperature
Can you smell any burning rubber from the vent holes on the cam towers? No hot belt smell, even the last time I ran the car in the garage to check for sensor function. Ran for 5 minutes before getting into the 3rd section of temp gauge...... OK no burning rubber is good
Does the engine temp go to just under the red zone in under 5 minutes at idle?? Yes .....this indicates a non turning water pump impeller, if the system is full , though you may not have the system full due to not opening the heater
Please list all of the parts that you replaced on this job Replaced water pump with Ed's enhanced pump, water pump gasket (installed dry), 5 short WP bolts, TB idler, TB Roller, seal at base of dipstick, seal for radiator drain plug...
DID you do any work to the tensioner?? ............ you should have atleast done a new gasket and boot and new pivot bushings
please answer these questions, yes or no will work...
After installing the new WP did you turn the pulley by hand to see if it spun freely? Not that I can recall. this should have been done to check that the impeller wasnt hitting the block
Is the belt tensioned correctly? Yes,,, Good
Did you remove the thermostat and inspect the rear seal?? No. I didn't disturb the thermostat during the WP replacement....this should have been part of the job so it still needs doing
Did you replace the thermostat? No,.... Replace with the rear seal and a new O ring
Did you open the heater to full hot prior to running the engine? No. Do I have an air pocket? Quite possible that you still dont have enough coolant in the system it should take just about 4 gallons
Did you let the engine warm up with the cap off??No, I did not... To fill the 928 coolant system, fill till the level reaches the seam then run the car with the heater on till the fans come on cap off,
then install the cap drive for about 5 miles with heater on then park it let it cool off then top up as necessary the system is a self bleeding system
Did you replace the cap after the fans come on and drive the car with the heater on full hot for about 5 miles and park it let it cool and top up as necessary? Car overheated as I pulled into the driveway after my 5 mile drive... No indication of overheat while at highway speeds. ... You may need a new coolant bottle cap as well, an old cap will let the system boil over at a lower temperature
Can you smell any burning rubber from the vent holes on the cam towers? No hot belt smell, even the last time I ran the car in the garage to check for sensor function. Ran for 5 minutes before getting into the 3rd section of temp gauge...... OK no burning rubber is good
Does the engine temp go to just under the red zone in under 5 minutes at idle?? Yes .....this indicates a non turning water pump impeller, if the system is full , though you may not have the system full due to not opening the heater
Please list all of the parts that you replaced on this job Replaced water pump with Ed's enhanced pump, water pump gasket (installed dry), 5 short WP bolts, TB idler, TB Roller, seal at base of dipstick, seal for radiator drain plug...
DID you do any work to the tensioner?? ............ you should have atleast done a new gasket and boot and new pivot bushings
10-09-2010, 02:56 AM
#36
Former Sponsor
Listen carefully to Greg Nettles/Stan. If it didn't overheat before you did the repair, the odds of some other component failing, while you do this repair, is very low.
Make sure you don't have a huge air bubble trapped in the block/heads. Then go back and check the water pump repair.
Ed's pump is virtually bullet proof, but there are a dozen reasons why the pump might not be turning. Look to see if the indexing marks have moved, like Ed suggests. If they have, you only need to fond out the reason for that. I'd they have not, you might want to seriously account for all your shop towels.
Make sure you don't have a huge air bubble trapped in the block/heads. Then go back and check the water pump repair.
Ed's pump is virtually bullet proof, but there are a dozen reasons why the pump might not be turning. Look to see if the indexing marks have moved, like Ed suggests. If they have, you only need to fond out the reason for that. I'd they have not, you might want to seriously account for all your shop towels.
10-09-2010, 03:19 PM
#37
Under the Lift
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In the first post you say "the fans never came on". If the fans are not coming on when it overheats (they should come on full before the second white line), although they come on when "tested" by unplugging the "emergency" sensor on the lower radiator or pushing the AC button, then that there is a problem. You have some indications of a low/no fluid flow problem (fast overheating, hot upper/cold lower hoses), but then you say it's OK on the freeway. The latter would point to an airflow problem (no fans).
10-09-2010, 05:25 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
no bill, this is what happen when the radiator is clogged or the Tstat is not opening, (and that can be due to no water in the top of the tstat area, due to air bubble). it is extremely common to overheat, near the white line, and almost into the red with no fans coming on. (i.e. water not circulating, so lower radiator hose which normally would get water from the water pushing out of the engine down to the lower hose, DOESNT happen) so, you over heat, lower hose is cool or "touchable" and upper is flaming hot!
So, you dont need to go though much trouble to bleed the system. just fill it to mid line and start squeazing the both large water hoses until all the air is out of the system (maybe 10 squeezes) seal it all up and go for a drive. if it still over heats, ether your water pump ins not moving, or your t-stat is stuck. pull it. its 10 seconds to get that thing out, and put it in boing water to see if it works. next, you can do a flow check, but that amounts to short circuiting the t-stat with a wedge and re-installing it, and then running the engine. very easy to do. use a brass gear from a little electric motor to slip over the t-stat shaft to wedge it open. then, the t-stat and air in the system is out of the equation. still over heating, now you can check for flow. (pull the two lines, one you feed with a water hose from your garden, and the other flows over the fender. then, you confirm if you have flow. if not, radiator clogged or pump bad. that simple!
MK
So, you dont need to go though much trouble to bleed the system. just fill it to mid line and start squeazing the both large water hoses until all the air is out of the system (maybe 10 squeezes) seal it all up and go for a drive. if it still over heats, ether your water pump ins not moving, or your t-stat is stuck. pull it. its 10 seconds to get that thing out, and put it in boing water to see if it works. next, you can do a flow check, but that amounts to short circuiting the t-stat with a wedge and re-installing it, and then running the engine. very easy to do. use a brass gear from a little electric motor to slip over the t-stat shaft to wedge it open. then, the t-stat and air in the system is out of the equation. still over heating, now you can check for flow. (pull the two lines, one you feed with a water hose from your garden, and the other flows over the fender. then, you confirm if you have flow. if not, radiator clogged or pump bad. that simple!
MK
In the first post you say "the fans never came on". If the fans are not coming on when it overheats (they should come on full before the second white line), although they come on when "tested" by unplugging the "emergency" sensor on the lower radiator or pushing the AC button, then that there is a problem. You have some indications of a low/no fluid flow problem (fast overheating, hot upper/cold lower hoses), but then you say it's OK on the freeway. The latter would point to an airflow problem (no fans).
10-09-2010, 07:00 PM
#39
Chronic Tool Dropper
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I've had these symptoms a few times after coolant replacement. First and foremost, make sure the reservoir is COMPLETELY FULL of coolant before you start the car. If you can get the nose down a bit it will help. Don't be afraid to remove the bleed hoses from the radiator and the crossover manifold to get all the air out. Pull the hose, wait for water, replace the hose. Refill the reservoir. Start the engine. Open the heater valve by removing the vacuum hose from same, if it doesn't open with slider to full hot. Refill the reservoir, keeping it COMPLETELY FULL. After a minute of engine running, rev the engine some. Coolant should be circulating through the heater circuit, carrying air from the block to the reservoir. Rev the engine to get coolant flowing fast enough in the crossover to push any air there back through the block and heads to the reservoir. Is the reservoir still COMPLETELY FULL? If not, add more coolant until it is full again, and keep it full.
The heat in the top hose says that the pump is pumping OK. The cold lower hose says the thermostat isn't opening. Your goal is to get the air completely out of the water bridge so that hot water will get to the thermostat and get it to open. Keep the ther reseroir higher by getting the car level or maybe a bit nose-down. Keep The Reservoir Completey Full while you purge the air out, so there is always coolant above the level of the water bridge.
If you do decide to pull/inspect the thermostat, make sure the little bleed hole is at the top when it's installed. Some less-than-wonderful thermostats don't have the bleed hole; it's not such a bad idea to drill a small (maybe 3/32") hole for air bleed if there isn't one already. The crossover has the vent hose to the reservoir, but it's lower so air can still accumulate at the top.
The heat in the top hose says that the pump is pumping OK. The cold lower hose says the thermostat isn't opening. Your goal is to get the air completely out of the water bridge so that hot water will get to the thermostat and get it to open. Keep the ther reseroir higher by getting the car level or maybe a bit nose-down. Keep The Reservoir Completey Full while you purge the air out, so there is always coolant above the level of the water bridge.
If you do decide to pull/inspect the thermostat, make sure the little bleed hole is at the top when it's installed. Some less-than-wonderful thermostats don't have the bleed hole; it's not such a bad idea to drill a small (maybe 3/32") hole for air bleed if there isn't one already. The crossover has the vent hose to the reservoir, but it's lower so air can still accumulate at the top.
10-10-2010, 08:04 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the great advice and troubleshooting tips. I'm reviewing and putting together a strategy for walking through the problems. I'll post it before starting on Monday night, as well as updates as I go.
10-10-2010, 08:09 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Mrmerlin
DID you do any work to the tensioner?? ............ you should have at least done a new gasket and boot and new pivot bushings PO did tensioner work during TB/WP replacement 1500 miles ago. I would have replaced the entire setup with PKtensioner, but it looks like Ken is about 4 weeks behind demand and I wanted to get back on the road... :-(
DID you do any work to the tensioner?? ............ you should have at least done a new gasket and boot and new pivot bushings PO did tensioner work during TB/WP replacement 1500 miles ago. I would have replaced the entire setup with PKtensioner, but it looks like Ken is about 4 weeks behind demand and I wanted to get back on the road... :-(
10-11-2010, 01:16 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
You dont need to do anything but squeeze the hoses with the overfill filled near the top. 3/4 to start, and then squeeze the hoses to get the air out and then refil to 3/4.
NO, the upper hose does not indicate the pump is working. it will be smoking hot without the pump working. hmmm, how do I know?? yes, we had a few pump failures. one intermittant, which was a very hard one to solve. impeller slipped off shaft. stop engine, start it back up and then it worked. eventually, it failed perminantly.
mk
NO, the upper hose does not indicate the pump is working. it will be smoking hot without the pump working. hmmm, how do I know?? yes, we had a few pump failures. one intermittant, which was a very hard one to solve. impeller slipped off shaft. stop engine, start it back up and then it worked. eventually, it failed perminantly.
mk
I've had these symptoms a few times after coolant replacement. First and foremost, make sure the reservoir is COMPLETELY FULL of coolant before you start the car. If you can get the nose down a bit it will help. Don't be afraid to remove the bleed hoses from the radiator and the crossover manifold to get all the air out. Pull the hose, wait for water, replace the hose. Refill the reservoir. Start the engine. Open the heater valve by removing the vacuum hose from same, if it doesn't open with slider to full hot. Refill the reservoir, keeping it COMPLETELY FULL. After a minute of engine running, rev the engine some. Coolant should be circulating through the heater circuit, carrying air from the block to the reservoir. Rev the engine to get coolant flowing fast enough in the crossover to push any air there back through the block and heads to the reservoir. Is the reservoir still COMPLETELY FULL? If not, add more coolant until it is full again, and keep it full.
The heat in the top hose says that the pump is pumping OK. The cold lower hose says the thermostat isn't opening. Your goal is to get the air completely out of the water bridge so that hot water will get to the thermostat and get it to open. Keep the ther reseroir higher by getting the car level or maybe a bit nose-down. Keep The Reservoir Completey Full while you purge the air out, so there is always coolant above the level of the water bridge.
If you do decide to pull/inspect the thermostat, make sure the little bleed hole is at the top when it's installed. Some less-than-wonderful thermostats don't have the bleed hole; it's not such a bad idea to drill a small (maybe 3/32") hole for air bleed if there isn't one already. The crossover has the vent hose to the reservoir, but it's lower so air can still accumulate at the top.
The heat in the top hose says that the pump is pumping OK. The cold lower hose says the thermostat isn't opening. Your goal is to get the air completely out of the water bridge so that hot water will get to the thermostat and get it to open. Keep the ther reseroir higher by getting the car level or maybe a bit nose-down. Keep The Reservoir Completey Full while you purge the air out, so there is always coolant above the level of the water bridge.
If you do decide to pull/inspect the thermostat, make sure the little bleed hole is at the top when it's installed. Some less-than-wonderful thermostats don't have the bleed hole; it's not such a bad idea to drill a small (maybe 3/32") hole for air bleed if there isn't one already. The crossover has the vent hose to the reservoir, but it's lower so air can still accumulate at the top.
10-11-2010, 08:17 AM
#43
Chronic Tool Dropper
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You dont need to do anything but squeeze the hoses with the overfill filled near the top. 3/4 to start, and then squeeze the hoses to get the air out and then refil to 3/4.
NO, the upper hose does not indicate the pump is working. it will be smoking hot without the pump working. hmmm, how do I know?? yes, we had a few pump failures. one intermittant, which was a very hard one to solve. impeller slipped off shaft. stop engine, start it back up and then it worked. eventually, it failed perminantly.
mk
NO, the upper hose does not indicate the pump is working. it will be smoking hot without the pump working. hmmm, how do I know?? yes, we had a few pump failures. one intermittant, which was a very hard one to solve. impeller slipped off shaft. stop engine, start it back up and then it worked. eventually, it failed perminantly.
mk
Squeezing the hoses with the thermostat closed does nothing to purge air from the crossover section.
Let's see how it turns out.
10-11-2010, 12:51 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
oh brother! next time you have a water pump fail and have the water temp heading toward the red, check the upper hose, it will be hot, and if it is, it DOESNT mean your water pump is working.
as far as purging, yes, it workes. and takes little longer if you dont have a little 1/8" hole drilled in the Tstat, but it still works, ESPECIALLY with the system closed. (mainly because you cant do it with the reservior cap on and engine hot or warm)
Isnt it funny how I dont have all these problems that have plagued you and others? (because I found guys that knew about the problems and used THEIR techniques to fix them) Also, you are totally right about the reservior being filled over halfway, and almost to the top. that makes a big difference in the purging of the system and keeping the air out)
By the way, Im not the expert on any of these things. others here have taught me well. (I think the only think I did become an expert on was the intermediate plate adjustment and the "pinning" of it) 
as far as purging, yes, it workes. and takes little longer if you dont have a little 1/8" hole drilled in the Tstat, but it still works, ESPECIALLY with the system closed. (mainly because you cant do it with the reservior cap on and engine hot or warm)
Isnt it funny how I dont have all these problems that have plagued you and others? (because I found guys that knew about the problems and used THEIR techniques to fix them) Also, you are totally right about the reservior being filled over halfway, and almost to the top. that makes a big difference in the purging of the system and keeping the air out)
By the way, Im not the expert on any of these things. others here have taught me well.
(I think the only think I did become an expert on was the intermediate plate adjustment and the "pinning" of it)
10-11-2010, 06:09 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
We'll it's time to start. And I've gotten a ton of feedback and great suggestions.
Formulating a plan of attack is pretty hard. I will add one more observation as it relates to flow through the radiator. I noted that squeezing either top hose or bottom hose had essentially the same effect on the reservoir with back-flow. I believe it is a fair assumption that overall, flow from the block through the radiator to the lower hose is unhindered.
But the unknowns are 1) is there an air pocket between the radiator and the t-stat, 2) is the water pump is moving water, or 3) is the t-stat opening.
Greg - I take your comments about "looking at what you did" pretty seriously. I suspect that I did do something wrong in my repair and that the right thing to do is to back-track.
But I'm hedging my bets (and trying to short-cut?). I'm going to try to bleed out the system first. Then pop out the T-stat first and see if it's working correctly. If that doesn't work, I'm going back in.
Along the way, I'm going to try to figure out if that radiator sensor is broken or not.
Formulating a plan of attack is pretty hard. I will add one more observation as it relates to flow through the radiator. I noted that squeezing either top hose or bottom hose had essentially the same effect on the reservoir with back-flow. I believe it is a fair assumption that overall, flow from the block through the radiator to the lower hose is unhindered.
But the unknowns are 1) is there an air pocket between the radiator and the t-stat, 2) is the water pump is moving water, or 3) is the t-stat opening.
Greg - I take your comments about "looking at what you did" pretty seriously. I suspect that I did do something wrong in my repair and that the right thing to do is to back-track.
But I'm hedging my bets (and trying to short-cut?). I'm going to try to bleed out the system first. Then pop out the T-stat first and see if it's working correctly. If that doesn't work, I'm going back in.
Along the way, I'm going to try to figure out if that radiator sensor is broken or not.