5 Liter Hybrid build concerns
07-12-2010, 04:47 PM
#46
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Hi Bill:
It must have let go on the track all of a sudden. When I was putting oil in after the incident I didn't notice any oil in the valley. I guess the head gasket could have failed but he drove it quite a bit before he gave ti to me so i would think he had ample time to re-torque. I am also concerned that he admitted the gasket was the wrong shape to cover one of the oil channels so what else wasn't it sealing properly.
Thanks for your input.
Gary
It must have let go on the track all of a sudden. When I was putting oil in after the incident I didn't notice any oil in the valley. I guess the head gasket could have failed but he drove it quite a bit before he gave ti to me so i would think he had ample time to re-torque. I am also concerned that he admitted the gasket was the wrong shape to cover one of the oil channels so what else wasn't it sealing properly.
Thanks for your input.
Gary
07-12-2010, 04:47 PM
#47
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Okay - assuming this is true - that you lost that oil on the track. Over 6 quarts lets say. Hot engine. Hot exhaust. We have to use Rationality and Logic and state that:
1) Hot engines exist while racing.
2) Oil coming out of engine on tracks will have air-induced splatter.
3) If Oil splatters on hot engine objects such as exhaust or even later exhaust areas, it will smoke.
4) If there is enough heat, it will smoke, nearly catch fire, and smell really heavy.
There are pictures of a 944 turbo who had an engine issue where oil came out rapidly - it caused a HUGE fireball caught in pictures. Even if oil seeps slowly onto headers, it smokes and smells.
So where did the oil go? If it was burned in the chamber at a fast rate, but not burned enough at once to cause a smoke screen, then the engine may have had real issues.
I over filled a 2V car once. By about a quart or so. Upon an uphill climb and high revs - I created a smoke screen over 2 blocks long out the tail pipe. Thick oil smoke. I stopped - and it was still overfilled. That 2 block smoke screen only burned about .5 of a quart.
1) Hot engines exist while racing.
2) Oil coming out of engine on tracks will have air-induced splatter.
3) If Oil splatters on hot engine objects such as exhaust or even later exhaust areas, it will smoke.
4) If there is enough heat, it will smoke, nearly catch fire, and smell really heavy.
There are pictures of a 944 turbo who had an engine issue where oil came out rapidly - it caused a HUGE fireball caught in pictures. Even if oil seeps slowly onto headers, it smokes and smells.
So where did the oil go? If it was burned in the chamber at a fast rate, but not burned enough at once to cause a smoke screen, then the engine may have had real issues.
I over filled a 2V car once. By about a quart or so. Upon an uphill climb and high revs - I created a smoke screen over 2 blocks long out the tail pipe. Thick oil smoke. I stopped - and it was still overfilled. That 2 block smoke screen only burned about .5 of a quart.
It is virtually impossible to loose 4 quarts of oil out of an engine, in 30 minutes, without a ton of smoke...unless something major springs a leak and it sprays oil directly onto the ground, without it hitting the exhaust.
If it burns it, it gets blackflagged. If it touches the exhaust, same result.
Guess it could get pumped into the cooling system, from a bad oil cooler in the radiator....but there would be traces of this.
gb
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Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
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Have fun with your 928's people!
07-12-2010, 04:48 PM
#48
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Hi BC:
I really don't know where the oil went and am just speculatimg that it dumped out on the track. I didn't notice any smoke and I didn't get a strong smell of burning oil. It really is quite confusing and it wasn't just me I had an instructor in the car with me and the only thing we noticed on track was the slight warbling sound.
I was on a track but I wasn't racing I was in the novice group at a Porsche HPDE day and was only on the second or third lap of being let loose to bring things up to speed. The car really wasn't under major stress definitely more that on the street but not race type stress.
Thanks,
Gary
I really don't know where the oil went and am just speculatimg that it dumped out on the track. I didn't notice any smoke and I didn't get a strong smell of burning oil. It really is quite confusing and it wasn't just me I had an instructor in the car with me and the only thing we noticed on track was the slight warbling sound.
I was on a track but I wasn't racing I was in the novice group at a Porsche HPDE day and was only on the second or third lap of being let loose to bring things up to speed. The car really wasn't under major stress definitely more that on the street but not race type stress.
Thanks,
Gary
07-12-2010, 04:55 PM
#50
The only suggestion I could make is that the oil level was incorrectly read because of some incline which the car was on at the time of checking. That could skew readings.
07-12-2010, 04:58 PM
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Hi Greg:
I guess since we know there was a slight oil leak before the track day we have assumed the oil let go but something like this where the oil could have ended up in the cooling system or somewhere else has to be considered. The radiator was changed as part of the build, it was replaced with a new stock radiator.
I have sent you the picture that I sent the mechanic of my garage floor.
Is there anywhere else the oil could go like in the bell housing or something like that?
Thanks again for your thoughts,
Gary
I guess since we know there was a slight oil leak before the track day we have assumed the oil let go but something like this where the oil could have ended up in the cooling system or somewhere else has to be considered. The radiator was changed as part of the build, it was replaced with a new stock radiator.
I have sent you the picture that I sent the mechanic of my garage floor.
Is there anywhere else the oil could go like in the bell housing or something like that?
Thanks again for your thoughts,
Gary
07-12-2010, 05:03 PM
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Hi BC:
The area where the pits are located is pretty much flat and was the same location that I checked the oil at the beginning of the day and were the car was checked after I had the problem.
Thanks,
Gary
The area where the pits are located is pretty much flat and was the same location that I checked the oil at the beginning of the day and were the car was checked after I had the problem.
Thanks,
Gary
07-12-2010, 05:56 PM
#53
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If it dumped a gallon of oil out in that amount of time it would have soaked his car and the rest of the field.
A gallon of oil goes a very long way.
A gallon of oil goes a very long way.
07-12-2010, 06:13 PM
#54
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Just about all of our undercarriages are covered in oil to some degree. Dropping the amount you did would have created a complete dripping mess, and I can't see the track staff not seeing a problem. So, there still is a good mystery here.
07-12-2010, 06:33 PM
#55
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This is the mystery.
It is virtually impossible to loose 4 quarts of oil out of an engine, in 30 minutes, without a ton of smoke...unless something major springs a leak and it sprays oil directly onto the ground, without it hitting the exhaust.
If it burns it, it gets blackflagged. If it touches the exhaust, same result.
Guess it could get pumped into the cooling system, from a bad oil cooler in the radiator....but there would be traces of this.
gb
It is virtually impossible to loose 4 quarts of oil out of an engine, in 30 minutes, without a ton of smoke...unless something major springs a leak and it sprays oil directly onto the ground, without it hitting the exhaust.
If it burns it, it gets blackflagged. If it touches the exhaust, same result.
Guess it could get pumped into the cooling system, from a bad oil cooler in the radiator....but there would be traces of this.
gb
Unless of course it just happened to be very very low on coolant at the same time ?
07-12-2010, 06:43 PM
#56
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I know that "Estate" dropped about 3 quarts of oil in about 1 to 1.5hours and it was a bloody mess under the car, all over the front of the engine. this was all pan gasket leaks, not a header and likely, all that would have been vaporized over a header as has been discussed.
dont know. point is, it went somewhere and the engine grenaded ,or did it. no one ever was shown the damaged components or were they? the entire thing stinks IMHO. right up to the "900" break in . you mean this mechanic drove the car around for a month or two? these engines dont need break in, in fact, I raced my 5 liter euro after I took it on a 500mile trek, just to be sure . my new stroker, was driven around 2-500miles before I raced it. Most engines just are taken to the track and are run mellow for a couple of sessions and thats all you need to do.
all very sad. But, onward and upward with the new engine.
dont know. point is, it went somewhere and the engine grenaded ,or did it. no one ever was shown the damaged components or were they? the entire thing stinks IMHO. right up to the "900" break in . you mean this mechanic drove the car around for a month or two? these engines dont need break in, in fact, I raced my 5 liter euro after I took it on a 500mile trek, just to be sure . my new stroker, was driven around 2-500miles before I raced it. Most engines just are taken to the track and are run mellow for a couple of sessions and thats all you need to do.
all very sad. But, onward and upward with the new engine.
07-12-2010, 06:53 PM
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Hi Jon:
There was no steam or smoke that I am aware of. There was fluid in the expansion tank when I started the track day but I didn't pull a hose and check the radiator directly.
Thanks,
Gary
There was no steam or smoke that I am aware of. There was fluid in the expansion tank when I started the track day but I didn't pull a hose and check the radiator directly.
Thanks,
Gary
07-12-2010, 06:53 PM
#59
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If oil was getting into the coolant AND there was a coolant leak, that could explain it.
A gallon of coolant could be lost through an external leak during a single track session and with track speeds blowing it around you would not see traces. I've seen that happen.
07-12-2010, 06:57 PM
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Hi Mark:
It is a mystery where the oil went.
I have not seen any of the components, actually I only received a call from him Friday and it took me a year to get that. I do plan to have another conversation with him and will probably make the trek up to his place and get a chance to see the parts. Maybe I will be able to get him to send me some pictures.
Thanks,
Gary
It is a mystery where the oil went.
I have not seen any of the components, actually I only received a call from him Friday and it took me a year to get that. I do plan to have another conversation with him and will probably make the trek up to his place and get a chance to see the parts. Maybe I will be able to get him to send me some pictures.
Thanks,
Gary