spode134

I just recently experienced an engine failure on my track car. I am in the process of building up my replacement engine and have a few general questions regarding oiling mods. The engine failed at Seattle I suspect from the sustained G''s that the repaving of turn 2 allow. This is a 3rd gear left hander that is 2-3 seconds in duration. The odd thing is I have ran at Seattle before with no problems.
Where do you plumb in the lines for an Accusump? To the stock fittings on the block for the oil cooler or is it better to use the filter plate available from 928 Motorsports? Is an Accusump worth installing? I have one to use already so it's free.
On it's own or with the Accusump is a pan spacer effective? With the cost of a mini starter and the spacer it is half of what the I J setup is.
The Ishara Johnson system is expensive and at this point can't afford it is there any alternatives? As in a home built scraper or pan baffle.
I race on the cheap and for the last 5 years have ran junk yard motors with no issues other than #4 cylinder head gasket failures on 2 engines. For me to put 1-2 k into oiling mods is alot and at this point not really an option.
Appreciate any feedback and ideas.
Darrin

hacker-pschorr

Accusump may be a bandaid, it's a damn good effective one.

IcemanG17

My advice...and I drive 1g+ in turn 2 at Thunderhill for around 6 seconds (left turn 80mph) is this:

1: dry sump is the best option, but PRICEY since its custom
2: If you want a lower priced alternative, do this.....get an "OB" oil pan parts which is the plastic insert, mesh screen and oil pickup (can be sourced cheap from 928intl)...install these with a 3/8th " pan spacer (requires mini starter) and run quality oil....DONE

This is what I did on the "lemons" racer..& it has over 30 hours on track (all at Thunderhill and Sears) on its motor with this setup....every oil analysis comes back perfect and we don't even have an oil cooler on it! Yes it drops pressure initially on turn in, but never under 50psi & unlike other stock oil system 928's it will recover and GAIN oil pressure as you exit the turn on throttle.....

Using the stock motor with stock S4 style oil pan the 1st motor lasted about 16 hours before it died....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1BlKelA3M

If you want an accusump I have a barely used hi pressure 3 qt with 55-60psi EPC valve installed...used for 2 hours until the engine died due to assembly error..... I'd send it to Accusump to be inspected and cleaned prior to using it...but I didn't see any metal inside it when I cleaned it?

slate blue

Sorry to disagree Hacker but I am with Sterling on this one, the bandaid in this cause may be a used bandaid and not save you when you need it most, the reason is that when the accusump charges itself. It may take a large gulp of aerated oil. It then supplies the aerated oil to the engine when it needs good oil the most. On that basis I say it fails.

On the dry sump issue, I would just like to say that the design is critical and I have been working on that recently, I can understand why some systems don't work. I think also we should start to divide the dry sumps into two. Ones that work on the dry sump principle and the other type that also pulls a vacuum with a proper engine breather system.

Greg

ptuomov

How long are you at the track at the time?

hacker-pschorr

I agree it's not hte best solution, not trying to say otherwise but they are a proven method of helping save motors.

Dry sump doesn't guarntee anything either.

For those building all out race engines (like Mike Simard) it's a no brainer to go dry sump, some very expensive components to save.
On the other hand you have my 79 which has been a dedicated track car since the early 90's. Only modification is an external cooler and accusump, the pan has never been off the car.

Dry sumping simply isn't a viable option for a lot of track driven 928's. To poo-poo and discourage these people from going down a proven path to save their engine is a disservice.
While the dabate goes on and these forums debate theory and "what-if's", people like Jean-Louis continue to put down very respectable lap times using nothing more than a lager than stock cooler, accusump, and quality oil.

mark kibort

Im at the track every month. never had any issues with anything related to engine failure. at first everyone said I was lucky. then I NOS'ed the engine, still lucky, then blew the head gasket, used barrs, still even more lucky. I pulled it so I could put in a 5 liter that I built! it went in. 2 years of racing, still lucky! then, the car went into the wall. (not so lucky, and my fault), then got the S4. unknown engine, 20 years old, beat up and negleged, 8 more race years, 120 race days, STILL lucky. and we are not talking about babying the motor either. watch and listen to my videos! all shifts, except this weekend with the students, are at 6400rpm. Then, I got the stroker. I didnt build the short block, the wisconson boys did, and its still perfect, after 3 years of racing, and all oil analysis of the above motors have come back with NO clue of any issues!

These are also tracks with 5 second 1.5 g left hand turns, right turn sweepers, and lots of high speed stuff. laguna, thunderhill, sears point, buttonwillow, etc.

Now, the next question is what kind of oil? how do you approach your 3 gear fast turns, and what are the rpms around the sweepers?

what is the oil pressure drop you see, if any?

do you use mobil one????? :duck:

I have NO oil breathers, no baffles, no filters, no ex coolers, no accusump, no spacers, nothing. you build this engine right, and you should be just fine, but run a great synethtic oil like redline or amsoil.

laguna with the 5 liter shifting off rev limiter: http://www.youtube.com/v/Sih48Dby9d0

thunderhill with the new 6.5L 928: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HS9hT84YOM


mk

mark kibort

brian,

your motor was toast before you ran it . you are lucky it lasted that long. you ran it for an hour without oil in it. you are lucky that it was just a bearing and not a rod through your "S4 pan".

Brian runs a spacer and and the old style pick ups which might be good as well. I have no issues with any of the designs. they all work fine.

g.orruño

i like the race in laguna seca with 5 litre engine, god work!!!!
but i dont understand;
if you run with out accusump, no spacers, no crank scraper, no oil coolers... why your engine not broke? if you take turns very fast and your oil pump not caught "air" inside the sump, why other engines yes??

IcemanG17

this is the MILLION $$$ ?? WHY...WHY does MK's motors with the stock S4 style sump not fail............he is the ONLY one EVER....every single other person that has put significant track time on a 928 blows the motor....its just reality.. The one mod that I think works that IS in MK's stroker is the cross drilled crank....

I agree with MK that it is possible the 1st engine in the lemons may not have been 100% healthy to start and the massive oil leaks coupled with standard dino oil didn't help things at all either.....

I have owned-driven 3 different 928's on track and have blown 3 engines....UNTIL I got to this engine, which seems to be the least expensive option for a reliable track driven 928 engine...... In fact I only drove 1 928 on track that DIDN'T blow the 2-6 rod bearing!!! That was a bone stock 88 automatic on street tires that I didn't push very hard on track & drove 6 times total. I did see peak G readings of 1.15g in it though....I'd say 1.5g in the current racer on R comps

g.orruño

exist someone who use redline or amsoil and his engien broke?

mark kibort

The oil number one (amsoil), the level of oil number 2, I use a proper gear around sweepers (not too high, not too low rpm for best lap time and engine survival)
number 3, engine is in good shape when I start.
The pace I keep is around 108% of the fastest 997GT3 cup cars if you want a general idea of how fast the car is going around a track near you. (generally, just for reference)

mark kibort

your other 928 had a suspect engine as well. (the widow from the start)

now that you have a motor that has lasted 30 hours, you probably have a good engine and you should be ok. again, I have the oil analysis, which shows nothing ever wearing out of the ordinary. also, we are not just talking a few track days, we are talking 120 race days! , 8 full seasons of racing. Big 335s on the rear, 315s up front, but only DOT, but I have run a few races on the A compound from Hoosier as well. much more stick and still not any issues.

also keep in mind, ive never seen a variance in oil pressure, 5 bar all the time, but 4.5 bar only on the sweeper at Thunderhill, otherwise, the oil pressure is pegged. remember, also, when using mobil 1 on another track 928, the pressure went so low on a hot day, that the pressure light came on. with good oil, that didnt happen.

also, as a side note, proper warm up could be saving my engines too. I have a warm up routine that gets the engine heat soaked before any hard track driving.

If Im so lucky, the holbert car would still be around today! well, I am lucky, that the car saved my life!!

mk

svp928

To answer Orunno's question, and to stir up ****, yes engines with Amsoil in them HAVE failed....same 2-6 problem. Amsoil and Redline are good oils, but not the be-all answer. Unlike Mark K, I have used Mobil 1 15-50 in my car for the past 14 years, and many track days without a problem. My car is still a street car- no cage, not stripped, street tires- so I am nowhere near as fast, but I have had no trouble with the oil pressure...

If I was building an engine, I would get whatever Greg Brown recommends...and then get him to build it!

ptuomov

When entering a corner, turn the steering to the correct angle and remove the keys from the ignition until the apex of the turn, then restart and accelerate away. If you do this and soak your underwear in Amsoil, you'll be ok. Install a scraper in your underwear if you are worried about "aeration."