Lizard928

there is no requirement for a new ign system using the VEMS either. But if you're going to redo it, it is best to redo it completely.

Having used MS in the past (not 3, but 1 and 2), for the extra couple $$$ you're far better off getting VEMS. MS connectors are not really that great, and there are other bugs shall we say. Its great for a commuter car trying to achieve good fuel mileage etc. But for a car where maximum power is the goal, it isnt my first choice.

U-928

I'll partially agree with you here. The DB37 is obnoxious. The MS1 and 2 chips wouldn't be first choice if going the MS-standalone route for this application. However, with my firsthand experience on the MS3's i think it'd fit the bill if one was put off by the cost of the VEMS. I don't have any experience with the newest "pro" version, but they've significantly improved the connections on it, as proven in the SEMA display. The ECU is fully submersible!



And as far as going for max HP/TQ numbers. MS has placed in the top 3 dyno shootout competitions when comparing standalone EFI systems. IIRC 2 years in a row on a big block of some sort. Found it:

From Here

Not trying to start a pissing contest here, nor am I paid in any way by MS to promote. Just a huge fan of all their systems. Back to the Twin turbo programming.

Jaeger

People lean towards the Motec, but what is the difference in end result between it and the ever popular AEM FIC 8? I listed its data sheet below along with the less advanced FIC 6 model. Could it be used or is it not capable of handling a ECU of this age?

OVERVIEW
The F/IC gives users with aftermarket forced induction systems the ability to retard ignition and deliver accurate amounts of fuel without the need for outdated FMUs or “boost hiding” controllers. This system works parallel to the factory ECU preventing tuning limitations due to complex factory timing patterns. 21x17 maps with configurable load and RPM breakpoints are easily accessed with the F/IC's Windows-based tuning software. The F/IC includes a PC USB interface for quick and easy calibration changes.
PRECISE FUEL DELIVERY
The F/IC intercepts the signal to the stock injectors, allowing the user to modify pulse-width directly by +/-100%. This powerful system can also tap into the factory injector signal and work independently to drive up to six (6) additional injectors.
TIMING RETARD CONTROL
The F/IC has the ability to retard timing by intercepting and delaying the outputs from the cam and crank position sensors to the engine- with no adverse affect on applications equipped with variable cam timing. The F/IC can retard timing from the factory system based on engine RPM and load inputs.
SENSOR CALIBRATION & CONTROL
The F/IC can also be used to recalibrate / clamp the MAF sensor, eliminating common problems with non-boosted factory MAFs. The on-board MAP sensor allows for proper fueling in boosted conditions.
CAN-BUS SYSTEMS NOT AFFECTED
Since the F/IC works in conjunction with the factory ECU, late model-vehicles equipped with a CAN-BUS system retain functionality of climate controls, dash and other components on the network.

FEATURES
Injector Channels - 8
Advanced Injector Load Simulation & Filtering - Yes
Timing Channels (Cam + Crank) - 5
High/Low Voltage Selectable MAG-Driver Outputs - Yes
TPS Input - Yes
MAP Sensor (Onboard) - Yes
MAP (0-5v Intercept) - Yes
MAF (0-5v Intercept) - Yes
Frequency Based Flow Meter Support - Yes
Speedometer Recalibrator - Yes
o2 Sensor Remapping - Yes
External AFR Input - Yes
Generic 0-5v Remappers - 2
Boost Controller (Requires AEM 30-2400 Solenoid) - Yes
IAT Logging Input - Yes
PC Datalogging - Yes
Internal Logging Memory - 2 Mb

FEATURES F/IC-6 F/IC-8
Injector Channels 6 8
Advanced Injector Load Simulation & Filtering No Yes
Timing Channels (Cam + Crank) 3 5
High/Low Voltage Selectable MAG-Driver Outputs No Yes
TPS Input Yes Yes
MAP Sensor (Onboard) Yes Yes
MAP (0-5v Intercept) Yes Yes
MAF (0-5v Intercept) Yes Yes
Frequency Based Flow Meter Support No Yes*
Speedometer Recalibrator No Yes*
o2 Sensor Remapping Yes Yes
External AFR Input Yes Yes
Generic 0-5v Remappers 2 2
Boost Controller (Requires AEM 30-2400 Solenoid) No Yes
IAT Logging Input No Yes
PC Datalogging Yes Yes
Internal Logging Memory 64 Kb 2 Mb
VTEC Output/Control/+12V Switched Output Yes Yes


KIT CONTENTS

F/IC Module
F/IC Tuner Software CD
F/IC Bypass Harness
24" Flying Lead Harness
36" Vacuum Hose
3/16" T-Fitting
10' USB COM Cable
4 - 4" Zip Ties
Instruction Manual

Lastly, I saw that with the addition of a AEM UEGO wideband guage this unit could recalibrate MAPS safely to avoid lean conditions on the fly and by itself.

worf928

Oops. My bad. Missed that.

hans14914

Problem with the FIC unit, or most piggyback is that they only work on a 0-5v sensor. Our MAF is odd in that it is essentially a 2.3-6.6v sensor (of which it would appear that the LH only recognized upto 6.1v).

blau928

Hi Jaeger,

I rant and rave about Motec, as it allows me to do what I want to do and meets my expectations for what I need done.. It's not for everyone, and probably not needed for a low + pressure, or Naturally Aspirated system on a street car that will hardly see any high load like in an Open Road Race, Race Track/DE Events or heavy autobahn use.

I chose the path with a full stand alone Motec instead of a piggyback, as there are also the dual Lambda inputs I wanted, Traction Control, and a CDi with COP conversion and a few other things that I will save for later... (Traction is especially important to me, as I expect to be on a first name basis with the tire company, and I would rather avoid that... )

(I am also not put off by building a new harness with mil spec connectors, or plugging into the stock harness.)

Everything has up and down sides. The downside for me, was no knock control in the Motec, but I have solved that with another black box, and it is only for safety from bad gas, and while tuning. If I get the mapping correct, I really will not need the knock sensors. However, I do feel better in case I get a load of bad fuel..

The stock LH with ST recalibration, Super MAF, and PEMS from John Speake are a really great deal, for most people here. Even if you do ITB's, you can build a plenum and use the MAF no problem. It will also save you lots of time and money in customizing stuff.....!

I would ask of the "auto-tune," Avoid how much lean Lambda, and correct to what rich Lambda? Who will define the lean and rich limit correction..??

I hope people use what they can to do what needs to be done. Don't mean to hijack this thread, and hope it helps with ECU's...

Thanks,

Hilton

Hi Richard, great to see you continuing this project!

FYI - John Speake has a variant of the Sharktuner which works with the stock ECU's and enables use of a MAP sensor instead of MAF. Jim Corenman is running it on his GT, and I know of at least one stroker with ITB's running it in the UK (GTS racecar).

Not to say you should abandon your Motec setup - I just figured you might have missed the development in your absence and would find it interesting.

blau928

Hi Hilton,

Great to be back, thanks. I plan build two setups as before, one to use the LH to see what is happening with the system and datalog using the single injector per cylinder for a baseline etc. The second will be to use the Motec with dual injectors per cylinder as well as traction etc..

I am glad that John finally has the MAP capability, as it will alleviate some design issues for me. No worries, I won't ditch this M8... I sold the other one, and had to buy a replacement from a friend..

Best,

R

John Speake

The system is Alpha-N with a throttle pot for load. We are also developing a MAP based system... which is needed for supercharged/turbocharged cars.


[QUOTE=Hilton;10391198]FYI - John Speake has a variant of the Sharktuner which works with the stock ECU's and enables use of a MAP sensor instead of MAF. Jim Corenman is running it on his GT, and I know of at least one stroker with ITB's running it in the UK (GTS racecar).

QUOTE]

Spun

I'm in love... when can I get my kit?

Hilton

Its already a kit.. you can buy the bits here:

http://www.kuhnperformance.com/model...928-twin-turbo

Tuomo's tweaked it with the boost controller, fuel pumps etc. - but the setup is pretty well developed and the pipes look great.

86 951 Driver

Has anyone ever looked at a Holley EFI system. They seem to be self-tuning. You can tweak the maps with a laptop if needed. Just a thought.

BC

Not nearly as advanced and user friendly as even MS, Adaptronic, Autronic or AEM. All have autotune. Its a crutch to get you to the dyno.

U-928

I'm laughing because you used "user friendly" in the same sentence as Autronic and AEM.

Thanks, I needed a good joke today.

ptuomov

Speaking of ECU's:

After we drove the car to the end of the fuel map even for the specially extended super-MAF maps, we're now firmly in the "there be dragons" edge on the map:



Niklas, John, and Jim just sent us some experimental software at alpha stage that will allow us to "color outside the lines" a bit further and "go where no man has gone before" in terms of the stock 928 computers.

The next test will use the old software and new wastegate springs and the test after that will test the new software. There will be some interesting results coming soon, plus I got to work in three movie / tv show references to this post.