Oil pan baffle archeological find: totally useless or answer to acillies heel?
03-05-2010, 06:05 AM
#211
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A very recent one on air entrainment and release in engine oils is 2009-01-1874 written by the head of Savant, Inc. http://www.savantgroup.com/savant.htm
Required reading for number 2/6 rod bearing failures (number 2 in the 944/968): SAE 932785 Excellent research. CliffsNotes readers can skip to pp 13-16 of the SAE paper.
Required reading for number 2/6 rod bearing failures (number 2 in the 944/968): SAE 932785 Excellent research. CliffsNotes readers can skip to pp 13-16 of the SAE paper.
03-05-2010, 11:27 AM
#212
Rennlist Member
Brian,
Read that exchange on the eRAM and you might learn something about air flow and pressure in the intake. Yeah, dont listen to someone that has done the testing, measurements and provided accurate descriptions of the concepts . What part of raising the intake air box pressure effecting HP dont YOU understand? (on cars with 300hp engines and less due to mass flow/pressure limitations of the device)
My comments here are only based on emperical testing. Does kevin have racing experence with a 928 or do I? My 928 has raced with its original engine (s) for more races than anyone. To disount my driving, he then posts a comparison of a guy driving a 928 that is shuffle sterring, and bogging the engine around turns , so much so that he has to downshift, post turn. Now, Kevin might be a smart guy, but he is missing the point here. He also posts the reason for my success based on advice for my car shifting style at <6000, 10 years ago.
. If this is the type of logic style that is used in his conclusions, I would dig a little deeper.
For the type of use of the 928, is the scraper or drysump really needed, and what problem does it solve? I have only brought up reality here. Sometimes that is a little easier to grasp than applying the proper SAE research and related concepts to a particular and specific, precieved problem.
Read that exchange on the eRAM and you might learn something about air flow and pressure in the intake. Yeah, dont listen to someone that has done the testing, measurements and provided accurate descriptions of the concepts . What part of raising the intake air box pressure effecting HP dont YOU understand? (on cars with 300hp engines and less due to mass flow/pressure limitations of the device)
My comments here are only based on emperical testing. Does kevin have racing experence with a 928 or do I? My 928 has raced with its original engine (s) for more races than anyone. To disount my driving, he then posts a comparison of a guy driving a 928 that is shuffle sterring, and bogging the engine around turns , so much so that he has to downshift, post turn. Now, Kevin might be a smart guy, but he is missing the point here. He also posts the reason for my success based on advice for my car shifting style at <6000, 10 years ago.
. If this is the type of logic style that is used in his conclusions, I would dig a little deeper. For the type of use of the 928, is the scraper or drysump really needed, and what problem does it solve? I have only brought up reality here. Sometimes that is a little easier to grasp than applying the proper SAE research and related concepts to a particular and specific, precieved problem.
Good info Kevin, as always. Any other SAE papers you can suggest?
Just remember, this is who youre "discussing" things with.... An E-Ram fan, literally.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ighlight=e-ram
Just remember, this is who youre "discussing" things with.... An E-Ram fan, literally.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ighlight=e-ram
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-05-2010 at 01:11 PM.
03-05-2010, 11:34 AM
#213
Rennlist Member
Going back to some original ideas for the reason of my success with our engine. What if the foaming qualities of the Amsoil oil is a factor? What if it is related to the thermal break down qualities. After all, many of us have seen the lower oil pressures with oil like mobil 1 vs some of the other high quality race synthetics. All I know is when I saw the oil warning light blinking on some turns at buttonwillow on a 100 degree day, (i.e. less than 2 bar ) and when amsoil or redline was used, 4-5 bar was seen, that was enough to change my mind.
I use the stock breather system as well, with out issues. any reason why I have had no issues with burning a unacceptable level of oil coming from the intake. So many have had all sorts of issue with these systems.
I use the stock breather system as well, with out issues. any reason why I have had no issues with burning a unacceptable level of oil coming from the intake. So many have had all sorts of issue with these systems.
A very recent one on air entrainment and release in engine oils is 2009-01-1874 written by the head of Savant, Inc. http://www.savantgroup.com/savant.htm
Required reading for number 2/6 rod bearing failures (number 2 in the 944/968): SAE 932785 Excellent research. CliffsNotes readers can skip to pp 13-16 of the SAE paper.
Required reading for number 2/6 rod bearing failures (number 2 in the 944/968): SAE 932785 Excellent research. CliffsNotes readers can skip to pp 13-16 of the SAE paper.
03-05-2010, 12:04 PM
#214
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Brian,
Read that exchange on the eRAM and you might learn something about air flow and pressure in the intake. Yeah, dont listen to someone that has done the testing, measurements and provided accurate descriptions of the concepts . What part of raising the intake air box pressure effecting HP dont YOU understand? (on cars with 300hp engines and less due to mass flow/pressure limitations of the device)
Read that exchange on the eRAM and you might learn something about air flow and pressure in the intake. Yeah, dont listen to someone that has done the testing, measurements and provided accurate descriptions of the concepts . What part of raising the intake air box pressure effecting HP dont YOU understand? (on cars with 300hp engines and less due to mass flow/pressure limitations of the device)
Moving on ...
My comments here are only based on emperical testing. Does kevin have racing experence with a 928 or do I? My 928 has raced with its original engine (s) for more races than anyone. To disount my driving, he then posts a comparison of a guy driving a 928 that is shuffle sterring and bogging the engine around turns , so much so that he has to downshift, post turn. Now, Kevin might be a smart guy, but he is missing the point here. He also posts the reason for my success based on advice for my car shifting style at <6000, 10 years ago. . If this is the type of logic style that is used in his conclusions, I would dig a little deeper.
. If this is the type of logic style that is used in his conclusions, I would dig a little deeper.Dig, dig, dig away.
For the type of use of the 928, is the scraper or drysump really needed, and what problem does it solve? I have only brought up reality here. Sometimes that is a little easier to grasp than applying the proper SAE research and related concepts to a particular and specific, precieved problem.
Perceived problem? You must mean as in being able to read, see and hear.
Last edited by Kevin Johnson; 03-05-2010 at 12:19 PM.
03-05-2010, 01:07 PM
#215
Rennlist Member
Kevin, most of that was in response to Brian's dig . Hey, I get your message to me and take it as a complement. However, I do disagree that for the most part, my driving is taking the engine to its max potential at any point on the track without question, and I have done this for over 8 consecutive seasons. Even Porsche proves their concepts and refines solution AFTER time on the track. I think my "testing" of the 928 system, and the way of driving, may have found some solutions for survival of the 928 on the track. Sure, i try not to abuse it an make mistakes, and maybe that has helped with longevity.
I think you have brought up some interesting information here. No disagreement, just to the degree we have to worry about it.
Interesting about you father and an industrial "electric supercharger". what the heck was it used for originally? the only commerially available relative to the eRAM that I could find, was the axial flow compressor used in DC6s back in the day for cabin pressurization. (although, much larger and a two stage axial flow fan, like some of the eRAM models).
mk
I think you have brought up some interesting information here. No disagreement, just to the degree we have to worry about it.
Interesting about you father and an industrial "electric supercharger". what the heck was it used for originally? the only commerially available relative to the eRAM that I could find, was the axial flow compressor used in DC6s back in the day for cabin pressurization. (although, much larger and a two stage axial flow fan, like some of the eRAM models).
mk
Over 50 years ago my Father bolted an industrial electric supercharger on his Nash Rambler straight six and took it up over 140mph at Willow Run. My Grandfather commented on him regularly catching rubber in gears as he took off from Romulus to UofM. Edit: Beep, beep -- he did not have the one in the video rather the earlier version with the convertible type top and the seats that Mothers warned their daughters about. The convertible top took flight during one of the top speed runs.
Moving on ...
Mark, I guess you have never heard of Moss and the Gullwing. Sigh. You try to give someone a real compliment and it whizzes right past them.
Dig, dig, dig away.
You have brought up your reality and die Grenze deine Umwelt is your talent for preserving the machinery. You take this as an insult?
Perceived problem? You must mean as in being able to read, see and hear.
Moving on ...
Mark, I guess you have never heard of Moss and the Gullwing. Sigh. You try to give someone a real compliment and it whizzes right past them.
Dig, dig, dig away.
You have brought up your reality and die Grenze deine Umwelt is your talent for preserving the machinery. You take this as an insult?
Perceived problem? You must mean as in being able to read, see and hear.
03-05-2010, 02:52 PM
#216
Rennlist Member
I would go on the record and say that you can live without a scraper control with that particular dry-sump system. Reasons being:
- the PACE product two stage scavenge pump is super efficient
- the design of the pan and you already have a rudimentary scraper in there
- the fact that i have covered 5000 track miles since installing the same set up in my car for zero oil consumption and oil pressure constantly at 5 bar. Tim Bryant's GTS is in its 4th season with the same setup, as well as Adrian Clark is in his 2nd season. Surely PACE must have gotten something right, when they designed the product...
03-05-2010, 03:06 PM
#217
Former Vendor
Then I guess its just lucky I that they make the same HP.
I think that there could be a bunch of differences that just counteract each other, but most of them are rounding errors I would imagine. I dont know, and I really mean that. If I was to guess, I would think things like the Nicasil vs Alusil, the head work differnces, or the drysump vs no drysump, might all be worth a single % or so in Hp each. I know that these mods all are good ideas for a race car and extra insurance so things wont break, but the stock stuff is pretty darn good for most everyone that is talkng about it here. I mean, lets face it, even Anderson burned up a 2 valve motor, even with it being drysumped. I think all this stuff is really for Willow Springs turn 8-9.
Mk
I think that there could be a bunch of differences that just counteract each other, but most of them are rounding errors I would imagine. I dont know, and I really mean that. If I was to guess, I would think things like the Nicasil vs Alusil, the head work differnces, or the drysump vs no drysump, might all be worth a single % or so in Hp each. I know that these mods all are good ideas for a race car and extra insurance so things wont break, but the stock stuff is pretty darn good for most everyone that is talkng about it here. I mean, lets face it, even Anderson burned up a 2 valve motor, even with it being drysumped. I think all this stuff is really for Willow Springs turn 8-9.
Mk
Trying to take your experiences and making broad statements that apply to all is....misleading. Put Anderson in your car around Thunderhill and you'd have hot, oily pieces all over the track....guaranteed!
I'd guess that the one off camber turn at Thunderhill has "collected' more than its fair share of rod bearings. I know that when we were doing truckloads of 951 engines (before dry sumping them), we'd have certain drivers that consistantly wouldn't make it until noon, on the first day, before they had a rod sticking out somewhere around #2 cylinder. We'd have other customers that could drive there event after event, and never have a problem. I had one customer that blew up his 951 engine every time he went there! We finally had to dry sump it....just for Thunderhill!
Once you've been around racing professionally, you quickly see that it is very rare for two (or three) drivers to drive the same, even though their lap times may be exactly the same. Here's a great example of this...and one of my favorite stories, when talking to drivers about handling. I was crew chief for a 911 which had three very talented, professional drivers. These three drivers were having a big discussion about one certain corner, with me. All of these drivers were with-in a tenth or two of having the same lap times. Two of the drivers were bitching their heads off, at me, that the car was undriveable through this one corner. The third said that the car was perfect through this corner. When I pressed the two drivers that were having problems, it turned out that one was having terrible oversteer problems and the other was having terrible understeer problems...and these guys (Kelly Collins/Cort Wagner) knew the difference!
Imagine what went through my mind! For one guy it is perfect, for another it pushes like crazy, and for the third, it's a tank slapper! How can all three be happening? Turned out it was all corner entry, throttle application, and apex point. Once we all compared notes, the two drivers that were having problems changed their lines to the way the guy that wasn't having problems drove the corner...and everyone was happy!
03-05-2010, 04:08 PM
#218
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Here is another picture of it. In the erstwhile sump area simply install a square piece of directional screening. Use the existing button head cap screws with largish washers to secure it -- it might be best to buy fasteners that are just a little bit longer. Orient the openings into the windage flow (it is flowing from the clockwise direction -- think cheesegrater). That will improve the scavenging in that area and stop the oil from bouncing off of it.
If you have trouble locating the screening I have plenty of scrap pieces that large that just get tossed. Same offer for the others running it.
Good luck with your racing.
If you have trouble locating the screening I have plenty of scrap pieces that large that just get tossed. Same offer for the others running it.
Good luck with your racing.
Stuart,
I would go on the record and say that you can live without a scraper control with that particular dry-sump system. Reasons being:
- the PACE product two stage scavenge pump is super efficient
- the design of the pan and you already have a rudimentary scraper in there
- the fact that i have covered 5000 track miles since installing the same set up in my car for zero oil consumption and oil pressure constantly at 5 bar. Tim Bryant's GTS is in its 4th season with the same setup, as well as Adrian Clark is in his 2nd season. Surely PACE must have gotten something right, when they designed the product...
I would go on the record and say that you can live without a scraper control with that particular dry-sump system. Reasons being:
- the PACE product two stage scavenge pump is super efficient
- the design of the pan and you already have a rudimentary scraper in there
- the fact that i have covered 5000 track miles since installing the same set up in my car for zero oil consumption and oil pressure constantly at 5 bar. Tim Bryant's GTS is in its 4th season with the same setup, as well as Adrian Clark is in his 2nd season. Surely PACE must have gotten something right, when they designed the product...
03-05-2010, 04:11 PM
#219
Rennlist Member
That could very well be true. Yes, I tip toe around 'til I figure the new tracks out. takes about 3 sessions before I get comfortable to drive my line. (took 3-4 days at willow and still not comfortable. ) I've had side by side videos of mark driving his car in WC before all the crazy mods, and we didnt do that many things differently. Mark, I will say, when the track is green, he is going 100% regardless of race or not. Me, I could be in " the saving the car for the race", mode more often.
I like that story of Cort W and the others. Very true, and impressive that all were able to drive the car the same as what was working, after they figured it out.
Sure tracks make a difference here too, and It would be interesting to see how much I trusted my theories at a track like Willow Springs, which my old 5 liter and 4.7 liter engines were the only engines that visited that track quite a while ago.
Hey, Mark and I finally drove the same car in the same day in Lemons. It would be interesting to analyze the differences, as I suspect our times will be fairly close, even though we have been told to "save the car".
we should have some good video and some dry track for the race this weekend!! WoOOOO HOOO!!
mk
) I've had side by side videos of mark driving his car in WC before all the crazy mods, and we didnt do that many things differently. Mark, I will say, when the track is green, he is going 100% regardless of race or not. Me, I could be in " the saving the car for the race", mode more often. I like that story of Cort W and the others. Very true, and impressive that all were able to drive the car the same as what was working, after they figured it out.
Sure tracks make a difference here too, and It would be interesting to see how much I trusted my theories at a track like Willow Springs, which my old 5 liter and 4.7 liter engines were the only engines that visited that track quite a while ago.
Hey, Mark and I finally drove the same car in the same day in Lemons. It would be interesting to analyze the differences, as I suspect our times will be fairly close, even though we have been told to "save the car".
we should have some good video and some dry track for the race this weekend!! WoOOOO HOOO!!
mk
I think you are very gentle when appling lateral "G" forces....nothing wrong with that....you just drive differently than others. I'd guess that you are very slow, when you initially go to a new track and require a lot of "seat time" to perfect your lines and get "up to speed". Tracks that you've run a zillion laps on, you do fine.
Trying to take your experiences and making broad statements that apply to all is....misleading. Put Anderson in your car around Thunderhill and you'd have hot, oily pieces all over the track....guaranteed!
I'd guess that the one off camber turn at Thunderhill has "collected' more than its fair share of rod bearings. I know that when we were doing truckloads of 951 engines (before dry sumping them), we'd have certain drivers that consistantly wouldn't make it until noon, on the first day, before they had a rod sticking out somewhere around #2 cylinder. We'd have other customers that could drive there event after event, and never have a problem. I had one customer that blew up his 951 engine every time he went there! We finally had to dry sump it....just for Thunderhill!
Once you've been around racing professionally, you quickly see that it is very rare for two (or three) drivers to drive the same, even though their lap times may be exactly the same. Here's a great example of this...and one of my favorite stories, when talking to drivers about handling. I was crew chief for a 911 which had three very talented, professional drivers. These three drivers were having a big discussion about one certain corner, with me. All of these drivers were with-in a tenth or two of having the same lap times. Two of the drivers were bitching their heads off, at me, that the car was undriveable through this one corner. The third said that the car was perfect through this corner. When I pressed the two drivers that were having problems, it turned out that one was having terrible oversteer problems and the other was having terrible understeer problems...and these guys (Kelly Collins/Cort Wagner) knew the difference!
Imagine what went through my mind! For one guy it is perfect, for another it pushes like crazy, and for the third, it's a tank slapper! How can all three be happening? Turned out it was all corner entry, throttle application, and apex point. Once we all compared notes, the two drivers that were having problems changed their lines to the way the guy that wasn't having problems drove the corner...and everyone was happy!
Trying to take your experiences and making broad statements that apply to all is....misleading. Put Anderson in your car around Thunderhill and you'd have hot, oily pieces all over the track....guaranteed!
I'd guess that the one off camber turn at Thunderhill has "collected' more than its fair share of rod bearings. I know that when we were doing truckloads of 951 engines (before dry sumping them), we'd have certain drivers that consistantly wouldn't make it until noon, on the first day, before they had a rod sticking out somewhere around #2 cylinder. We'd have other customers that could drive there event after event, and never have a problem. I had one customer that blew up his 951 engine every time he went there! We finally had to dry sump it....just for Thunderhill!
Once you've been around racing professionally, you quickly see that it is very rare for two (or three) drivers to drive the same, even though their lap times may be exactly the same. Here's a great example of this...and one of my favorite stories, when talking to drivers about handling. I was crew chief for a 911 which had three very talented, professional drivers. These three drivers were having a big discussion about one certain corner, with me. All of these drivers were with-in a tenth or two of having the same lap times. Two of the drivers were bitching their heads off, at me, that the car was undriveable through this one corner. The third said that the car was perfect through this corner. When I pressed the two drivers that were having problems, it turned out that one was having terrible oversteer problems and the other was having terrible understeer problems...and these guys (Kelly Collins/Cort Wagner) knew the difference!
Imagine what went through my mind! For one guy it is perfect, for another it pushes like crazy, and for the third, it's a tank slapper! How can all three be happening? Turned out it was all corner entry, throttle application, and apex point. Once we all compared notes, the two drivers that were having problems changed their lines to the way the guy that wasn't having problems drove the corner...and everyone was happy!
03-05-2010, 05:48 PM
#220
Former Vendor
That could very well be true. Yes, I tip toe around 'til I figure the new tracks out. takes about 3 sessions before I get comfortable to drive my line. (took 3-4 days at willow and still not comfortable. ) I've had side by side videos of mark driving his car in WC before all the crazy mods, and we didnt do that many things differently. Mark, I will say, when the track is green, he is going 100% regardless of race or not. Me, I could be in " the saving the car for the race", mode more often.
I like that story of Cort W and the others. Very true, and impressive that all were able to drive the car the same as what was working, after they figured it out.
Sure tracks make a difference here too, and It would be interesting to see how much I trusted my theories at a track like Willow Springs, which my old 5 liter and 4.7 liter engines were the only engines that visited that track quite a while ago.
Hey, Mark and I finally drove the same car in the same day in Lemons. It would be interesting to analyze the differences, as I suspect our times will be fairly close, even though we have been told to "save the car".
we should have some good video and some dry track for the race this weekend!! WoOOOO HOOO!!
mk
) I've had side by side videos of mark driving his car in WC before all the crazy mods, and we didnt do that many things differently. Mark, I will say, when the track is green, he is going 100% regardless of race or not. Me, I could be in " the saving the car for the race", mode more often. I like that story of Cort W and the others. Very true, and impressive that all were able to drive the car the same as what was working, after they figured it out.
Sure tracks make a difference here too, and It would be interesting to see how much I trusted my theories at a track like Willow Springs, which my old 5 liter and 4.7 liter engines were the only engines that visited that track quite a while ago.
Hey, Mark and I finally drove the same car in the same day in Lemons. It would be interesting to analyze the differences, as I suspect our times will be fairly close, even though we have been told to "save the car".
we should have some good video and some dry track for the race this weekend!! WoOOOO HOOO!!
mk
As we've discussed before: The oiling problems with the 928 come from more than one place, but the end results all look pretty much the same. Even with the best oiling system that you can find (highly efficient dry sump), you'd better be checking those soft, stock 928 rod bearings for damage pretty often. We certainly learned this from working on Anderson's dry sumped engine, when it still ran 928 style bearings!
You guys have fun, this weekend!
