bronto

TV, that is a poor definition of a kit car. By that definition the big Dodge pickups with Cummins engines (sourced from Cummins) are kit cars. DeTomaso was a real company that made multiple models of cars over time, the Pantera being the most well known.

"Kit cars" are cars you buy in kit form and assemble yourself.

Richter12x2

To add a few more to that, Subaru is building engines for the new Toyota sportscar, and Mitsubishi built Chrysler engines for YEARS. Ford Rangers, Mercury Capris and a lot more used Mazda engines. There's so much inbreeding in the automotive industry it's hard to figure out who made what.

bronto

And modern Lotus's use Toyotas.

tv

But that is my definition for me, because the engine is the most costly to engineer, to assemble, The engine IS what makes the car the car. That's what gives my euro it's character, that smooth power.


There is a term - Coachbuilder. Another term - Design House.


Pininfarina - purely design.

De Tomaso, Bertone - more coachbuilder, because their in-house activity was the body, then assembly of a package

Ferrari - true manufacturer - they actually have a foundry where they pour the blocks on site



GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes all those big industrials build engines. They are manufacturers.


If you don't design and assemble the engine that goes in your car your are not a true car company, IN MY OPINION. That does not mean the product is bad.

And what about AMG?

Richter12x2

You know, the auto transmission in the 928 came from Mercedes. . . is the 928 a kit car?

Richter12x2

Pretty sure they're just an in-house performance group, like STi (Subaru Technica International), NISMO or Mazdaspeed.

tv

I should have used the term Coachbuilder to describe the De Tomaso in my first post, as kit- car may have given some readers the impression of meaning cheap or a put-down on the car itself. That was not my intention.

But I do not see De Tomaso as a manufacturer. In fact the Bricklin also used the Ford 351 engine, so even though the cars looked nothing alike, when you stepped on the gas there has to be some strong similiarities.

tv

I left Porsche out above - specifically because they outsourced a lot of what had to be done, BUT the engineering and asssembly was theirs and it is what a lot do today, outsourcing parts, not design.

There really isn’t a “Borg Warner” transaxle, yes they sourced the production but the design and patents are
Porsche’s.
- Porsche 928 A/T transaxle sourcing: yes they use Mercedes parts, it wasn’t realistic to produce a separate
transmission for such a small manufacturing line. However Porsche worked to tune the design for the 928.



Even our engine blocks were done by Kolbenschmidt, our pistons by Mahle, but done to the Porsche engineered design and assembled by Porsche.

Will you find the same engine in another companies body? Only 1 special, extra wide VW.

dr bob

Contrast that with early Lotii that used Ford and Renault engines and driveline parts, with suspension bits sourced from other British makes like Triumph. The driveline and suspension in my 23's look suspisciously Ford-like, with early Spitfire front suspension bolted on. My very early Europa and Elan used the same front arms and very similarly-sourced brakes. Other early road cars, especially the Seven cars, were just barely north of kit cars that were "factory" assembled for the buyers. Some mid-life models also used Isuzu engines IIRC. It wasn't until tthe early 70's that Lotus got to the business of serious engine design below the heads, and even then the actual foundry and much of the assembly work was sourced from other neighboring car manufacturers. At least they had the forethought to design the early four-cylinder blocks to provide for easy expansion to eight later.

bronto

"Lotii"

Marine Blue

Great thread...

I've also been toying with buying something new but it would mean getting rid of the 928 and I can't seem to find any other super car that is worthy except for mabye the Testarossa. Prices are still high and I would want a perfect condition car with full maintenance so its definitely out of the question for now.

F451

Pantera. Loved them since a guy in my town had one when I was a kid. I used to drool over it on a regular basis as he parked it in his driveway quite often, and drove it often as well. One bad *** car for sure.

I'd love to pick one up. Then again, I'd love to pick up a whole lot of these bargain cars.

Its a great time to be exotic shopping right now.

Great thread.

polecat702

There are zero similarities between a Bricklin and a Pantera. A Pantera was a street version of the Ford GT 40. It uses the same transaxel, and on 15 inch wheels sits 40 inches tall, with tons of performance potential. At $10,000.00 new mine has gone up 8 hundred percent, but thats still about half of what I've spent on it in the past 36 years. IIRC the stock Panteras would run out over 150MPH when they were new. The Bricklin got a 351 smog motor that was a piece of garbage. BTW the Polecat is a GT 5, there are very few in this country, and has a 427 Windsor stroker, and Whipple blower 60% underdriven backed by a new 6 speed transaxel. 700 plus on the ground. And it's streetable, most of the high dollar exotics are not, except Porsches.

docmirror

Like I said, the Esprit is the value play in this area. If you're not too tall they are fairly comfy from 88 on. Here's one that's a pretty good deal:

http://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/1532784774.html

Marine Blue

I'm not a fan of buying high mileage cars unless they are truly up to date and cosmetically restored. I want the experience of driving a "new" old car. For $15K I can't imagine that car has up to date maintenance or am I wrong?

Knowing that cars are not investments....I still would be gunshy about buying a Lotus which may have a high maintenance cost associated with it and a low resale value if I get bored with it. Elise might be an exception to this...

I haven't really perused the Lotus Esprit forums, are they as supportive and knowledgeable as the Porshce or Ferrari forums? Could I maintain as easily as the 928? Are multiple parts sources available? I know the redhead will cost more but it will also hold its value and or increase based upon demand which means at least you won't lose the money at a rapid rate.