New Member- SoCal Stroker Society
03-04-2009, 10:31 AM
#31
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greg doesn't think it is a good idea, for several reasons: Here's a couple that are really obvious:
When the mass of the counterweight is reduced, especially on a small counterweight like is required on these relatively short rod engines, the only way to bring the engine back into balance is with the addition of Mallory. The addition of Mallory makes the crank much heavier and is very costly. Plan on adding 1,000.00 to 1200.00 dollars to get the crank to balance. This makes the effective "cost" of knife edging the crank much higher, which is certainly not calculated into the overall costs of an engine, by rookies.
Given the "real" cost of knife edging being close to $1500.00, that is not a very good return for the small amount of benefit to be found in these relatively low rpm engines. Since all engine projects have a budget, of some sort, I find that I can better spend that amount of money in another area that will give a better return.
Even on a "no budget" engine, the benefit of knife edging has to be weighed versus the increase in required mass away from the crank centerline. I've spent a lot of time and effort getting pieces as light as possible and have to think very hard about making something heavier, away from centerline.
I have to smile at the people that "think" they can do this stuff. While I think that "mirroring" my engines is the best form of flattery, there's a whole bunch more to this process than writing words on a piece of paper. All one needs to do is review the "experts" that have failed at attempting to do these engines. I've been doing 928 engines for over 25 years and I'm still learning....how someone can come along and hope to do this stuff, without knowledge and experience, is beyond me.
When the mass of the counterweight is reduced, especially on a small counterweight like is required on these relatively short rod engines, the only way to bring the engine back into balance is with the addition of Mallory. The addition of Mallory makes the crank much heavier and is very costly. Plan on adding 1,000.00 to 1200.00 dollars to get the crank to balance. This makes the effective "cost" of knife edging the crank much higher, which is certainly not calculated into the overall costs of an engine, by rookies.
Given the "real" cost of knife edging being close to $1500.00, that is not a very good return for the small amount of benefit to be found in these relatively low rpm engines. Since all engine projects have a budget, of some sort, I find that I can better spend that amount of money in another area that will give a better return.
Even on a "no budget" engine, the benefit of knife edging has to be weighed versus the increase in required mass away from the crank centerline. I've spent a lot of time and effort getting pieces as light as possible and have to think very hard about making something heavier, away from centerline.
I have to smile at the people that "think" they can do this stuff. While I think that "mirroring" my engines is the best form of flattery, there's a whole bunch more to this process than writing words on a piece of paper. All one needs to do is review the "experts" that have failed at attempting to do these engines. I've been doing 928 engines for over 25 years and I'm still learning....how someone can come along and hope to do this stuff, without knowledge and experience, is beyond me.
makes sense to me
03-04-2009, 02:08 PM
#33
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greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
03-04-2009, 08:56 PM
#34
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I know his is gonna be slightly different (and a hair more aggressive it looks like), but Rob's is sounding kinda similar to my little california sleeper.
Which is all good - I was just shocked that there was a second person crazy enough to spend the cubic dollars on a street oriented fully CA legal setup
Which is all good - I was just shocked that there was a second person crazy enough to spend the cubic dollars on a street oriented fully CA legal setup
03-04-2009, 09:24 PM
#35
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Part of the original plan was (*and still is*, to some extent) to see how much money could be saved by my doing as much of the busy work as possible. Knowing what I know now about the level of cleanliness, care and prep Greg expects for each component going back together (has to pass the 'lick' test), the potential savings is huge- Between motor teardown, scraping loctite out of the block & oil passages, disassembling heads, cleaning/polishing/sonicating lifters, polishing valve stems, blasting valve covers and manifolds, beading all the bolts and shiny bits, etc etc., since Christmas I easily have 50+ hours into the motor, and that's just disassembly and cleaning. (I'm sure Greg could have done it all a lot faster, but you see the potential labor savings). I can imagine what he charges to R&R an engine, and I'll do that too so I can clean the engine compartment, do the clutch hydraulics, etc.
So, all discussions aside about the absolute folly of 'saving' money while building a stroker, I think there's some real opportunity to economize on the labor side of the equation. But Greg has a smooth way of nonchalantly dropping some shiny trick piece of engine in your hand, so your right brain reflexively says, "Oh yeah, let's put that in the motor, might as well WWAIT....."
So, all discussions aside about the absolute folly of 'saving' money while building a stroker, I think there's some real opportunity to economize on the labor side of the equation. But Greg has a smooth way of nonchalantly dropping some shiny trick piece of engine in your hand, so your right brain reflexively says, "Oh yeah, let's put that in the motor, might as well WWAIT....."
03-04-2009, 10:09 PM
#36
Pan Girdle? Pan Spacer? Lighter lifters? Headers? Large fuel rail? Better fuel pump?
What compression? Nikasil on the block or coated pistons for alusil?
What compression? Nikasil on the block or coated pistons for alusil?
03-04-2009, 10:11 PM
#37
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I think it's great that you're able to be more hands-on with your effort. I'd have loved to have at least been there to hold wrenches and degrease parts, but it's a 4 hour round trip from Santa Barbara, and I have this job thing that they like me to show up for here
I can't wait to get a set of those new cams and injectors in mine to reach the real dyno curves...
I can't wait to get a set of those new cams and injectors in mine to reach the real dyno curves...
03-04-2009, 11:49 PM
#38
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Pan Girdle? Pan Spacer? Lighter lifters? Headers? Large fuel rail? Better fuel pump?
What compression? Nikasil on the block or coated pistons for alusil?
What compression? Nikasil on the block or coated pistons for alusil?
No (what's a pan girdle?), yes, no (but they're 'improved'), no (likewise, 'improved'), no, 044, dunno, Nikasil.
Greg's shop is just a few miles from the teaching hospital where I'm on service half the time. Makes it real easy to stop by during lunch for a few minutes to drop things off, pick things up, get graded on my cleaning/polishing/readying efforts. It's like school, I tell ya, just a hell of a lot more fun.
One of the deals with Nikasiling the block is that all the steel needs to be removed first. Hence my botched stud removal. Of course, all the dowel pins on the bellhousing, head and WP surfaces, the front main bearing pin and the cradle locating sleeve need to come out too. The WP dowels are easy, but the bellhousing pins are a screaming beyotch. After literally 2 hours of MAPP gas heating and turning but not removing them, it hit me to try using one of those Craftsman socket-type lefty spiral extractors on an impact wrench (after actually heating the block). The socket bottoms on the block and pulls them right out. I was afraid to go postal on the head, bearing and block surfaces, so of course I destroyed some of them by trying to use vice grips and heat. I left those for Greg (I'm sure he loves cleaning up afer crap like this...) Dunno how he got these out without munging up the block:
It's easy to be cavalier with this stuff when you've got good backup nearby......
03-04-2009, 11:51 PM
#39
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So is Greg looking for anyone else to volunteer to sweep up the shop and fetch tools/clean parts in exchange for watching and learning? I'm maybe 10 minutes down the road from there and had no idea until now!
03-04-2009, 11:53 PM
#40
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hands on is a great way to learn, as opposed to just handing over a check--in my opinion.
I suppose Greg (no offense GB) was having a bad day during his original post (?) as I don't recall anyone dissing his work----it is well respected. He should also be commended for saying that it is a learning process, and that things do change when you find an issue of the day to be made better. the rod/piston offset issue is a good example of this.
as an admitted "rookie", I am always learning with new revelations about anything I do, regardless of how many "other" engines I've built over the past thirty five years......Porsche engine building is not an exclusive club. the biggest problem with the 928 stroker program, is that I thought it was put together to find an inexpensive way to increase performance using readily available domestic internals---how quickly it has become that I was dead wrong on this understanding.....
as I commented to Tom and Mark (928 Int'l) when I was visiting them this past Friday, I am continually amazed at how much information is kept secret. If these engine builds were being used in a competition setting, I could very well understand not letting your power secrets get out. otherwise---it does little to help educate the masses, and that hurts the enthusiasts....in my opinion.
--Russ
I suppose Greg (no offense GB) was having a bad day during his original post (?) as I don't recall anyone dissing his work----it is well respected. He should also be commended for saying that it is a learning process, and that things do change when you find an issue of the day to be made better. the rod/piston offset issue is a good example of this.
as an admitted "rookie", I am always learning with new revelations about anything I do, regardless of how many "other" engines I've built over the past thirty five years......Porsche engine building is not an exclusive club. the biggest problem with the 928 stroker program, is that I thought it was put together to find an inexpensive way to increase performance using readily available domestic internals---how quickly it has become that I was dead wrong on this understanding.....
as I commented to Tom and Mark (928 Int'l) when I was visiting them this past Friday, I am continually amazed at how much information is kept secret. If these engine builds were being used in a competition setting, I could very well understand not letting your power secrets get out. otherwise---it does little to help educate the masses, and that hurts the enthusiasts....in my opinion.
--Russ
03-04-2009, 11:53 PM
#41
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Well, the tuition payments are pretty significant.....
03-05-2009, 12:34 AM
#42
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hands on is a great way to learn, as opposed to just handing over a check--in my opinion.
I suppose Greg (no offense GB) was having a bad day during his original post (?) as I don't recall anyone dissing his work----it is well respected. He should also be commended for saying that it is a learning process, and that things do change when you find an issue of the day to be made better. the rod/piston offset issue is a good example of this.
as an admitted "rookie", I am always learning with new revelations about anything I do, regardless of how many "other" engines I've built over the past thirty five years......Porsche engine building is not an exclusive club. the biggest problem with the 928 stroker program, is that I thought it was put together to find an inexpensive way to increase performance using readily available domestic internals---how quickly it has become that I was dead wrong on this understanding.....
as I commented to Tom and Mark (928 Int'l) when I was visiting them this past Friday, I am continually amazed at how much information is kept secret. If these engine builds were being used in a competition setting, I could very well understand not letting your power secrets get out. otherwise---it does little to help educate the masses, and that hurts the enthusiasts....in my opinion.
--Russ
I suppose Greg (no offense GB) was having a bad day during his original post (?) as I don't recall anyone dissing his work----it is well respected. He should also be commended for saying that it is a learning process, and that things do change when you find an issue of the day to be made better. the rod/piston offset issue is a good example of this.
as an admitted "rookie", I am always learning with new revelations about anything I do, regardless of how many "other" engines I've built over the past thirty five years......Porsche engine building is not an exclusive club. the biggest problem with the 928 stroker program, is that I thought it was put together to find an inexpensive way to increase performance using readily available domestic internals---how quickly it has become that I was dead wrong on this understanding.....
as I commented to Tom and Mark (928 Int'l) when I was visiting them this past Friday, I am continually amazed at how much information is kept secret. If these engine builds were being used in a competition setting, I could very well understand not letting your power secrets get out. otherwise---it does little to help educate the masses, and that hurts the enthusiasts....in my opinion.
--Russ
The other issue, at least on this forum, is that it sometimes seems like it is futile to discuss things. For instance, we found out that the Chevy offset connecting rod, in a 928 engine, isn't the "best" idea. Instant debate. I sometimes find myself asking myself, "Why do I bother? It would be a heck of a lot easier to let them figure it out, on their own, when all I get is grief."
I will tell people things that will keep them from making mistakes. I'll share and help with everything I can...there are lots of people, out there, that know this. However, I do not think that it is my role to tell everyone every little detail about how to build a proprietary stroker engine.
I really have no problems with the home guys doing things...I'll always give them help...always have.
03-05-2009, 05:10 PM
#43
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I quiet well understand your concerns (Sterling/Greg) and was just making a general statement of the current affairs. Some proprietary info is always held close to the vest, however when it comes to something like the rod offset conversation, it was refreshing to see a good debate on that issue. It will ultimately be up to the builder to judge whether the added expense is justified or not, given the particular application.
We can argue this all day long, but my position on this has always been:
"What is your goal with (any) this modification?"
If you are just trying to be the biggest kid on the block, you'll find it very, very fleeting.....
In the meantime, I, like many others, will sit back and let the contest continue before pulling the wallet trigger for one mod or another.
--Russ
We can argue this all day long, but my position on this has always been:
"What is your goal with (any) this modification?"
If you are just trying to be the biggest kid on the block, you'll find it very, very fleeting.....
In the meantime, I, like many others, will sit back and let the contest continue before pulling the wallet trigger for one mod or another.
--Russ
03-05-2009, 06:10 PM
#44
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Russ-
Points well taken. My personal goal is not to have the mack daddy top HP 928 uber-motor, (Todd, Joe, Tim, DR, Carl and Greg (who am I forgetting?) can arm-wrestle for that crown) so I guess you could say my goal is to have the most powerful, reliable stroker that passes California visual and sniffer testing and can sit idling in L.A. traffic in 100o heat on 91 crap octane. I'll certainly end up with less horsepower than any of Greg's race motors, or Sterling and Louie's ITB motors, or perhaps even some of the SC motors. I seriously considered both the Murf setup and the Twinscrew but decided that having professional help 10 miles away and a stock-looking motor was important to me.
Let's be perfectly honest for a minute. Like Greg said, he's been doing this for 25 years, and he's still learning. This is an iterative process, nobody knows what works perfectly, and I am fully aware that a few parts of this build are guinea pigs that may or may not increase power, and I accept that risk. Wouldn't have signed up if I wasn't willing to accept it.
Greg knows what's in his previous motors and what's going in mine. He knows the cam timing, and the cam specs, and what he did to the intakes, and the valvetrain, and the fueling, and he's got his ST and his dyno. No matter what power mine makes, he'll learn some more about what works and what doesn't. And I will post as many pictures of the experience as I can, 'cause it's fun to share the experience with the enthusiast community.
And I will get a reliable sleeper motor with more power than someone with my driving skills should have. Greg wins, I win, his future customers win, society is endangered. It's all good.
Points well taken. My personal goal is not to have the mack daddy top HP 928 uber-motor, (Todd, Joe, Tim, DR, Carl and Greg (who am I forgetting?) can arm-wrestle for that crown) so I guess you could say my goal is to have the most powerful, reliable stroker that passes California visual and sniffer testing and can sit idling in L.A. traffic in 100o heat on 91 crap octane. I'll certainly end up with less horsepower than any of Greg's race motors, or Sterling and Louie's ITB motors, or perhaps even some of the SC motors. I seriously considered both the Murf setup and the Twinscrew but decided that having professional help 10 miles away and a stock-looking motor was important to me.
Let's be perfectly honest for a minute. Like Greg said, he's been doing this for 25 years, and he's still learning. This is an iterative process, nobody knows what works perfectly, and I am fully aware that a few parts of this build are guinea pigs that may or may not increase power, and I accept that risk. Wouldn't have signed up if I wasn't willing to accept it.
Greg knows what's in his previous motors and what's going in mine. He knows the cam timing, and the cam specs, and what he did to the intakes, and the valvetrain, and the fueling, and he's got his ST and his dyno. No matter what power mine makes, he'll learn some more about what works and what doesn't. And I will post as many pictures of the experience as I can, 'cause it's fun to share the experience with the enthusiast community.
And I will get a reliable sleeper motor with more power than someone with my driving skills should have. Greg wins, I win, his future customers win, society is endangered. It's all good.
