Bill Ball

Hold on. It's not the sunroof motor. The motor is doing what any motor would do if you gave it 12V on one side (pin 6 of T42) and ground on the other (pin 5). Alan, I'm trying to understand your diagram above. At rest, all the motors are getting 12V on both the common and the individual motor side. So, shouldn't I see 12V on both pins 5 and 6?

And in answer to your question, express works on BOTH sides AND the sunroof! That isn't right, is it?

SharkSkin

Getting close... does the sunroof motor have a short to ground?

Ed Scherer

No. But I now that I know about this (thanks!), I probably will before I button things up again!

Don't knock DOT: they just know that the H5 headlights are better and safer than the H4.

Ed Scherer

Bill, do you still need this info, or are you past this?

I can still take a look at this later (after around 10 PM or 11 PM CDT), but not until then (have to leave again in a few minutes).

Alan

Bill - yes 12v at rest on all motor drive signals - thats what I said at first based on my notes - and then I though it was wrong - but Ed's details confirm it.

So for a motor to drive closed its own relay alone switches & for it to drive open its relay doesn't change but all the others and the common switch (so apart from anything else that is louder). So for the sunroof yes pins 5 & 6 should be at ~12v at rest.

Bill do you mean express-close works on all? (this should be limited to the drivers window) while express-open should work on all. I do think the config for express-close may be related to the jumper you cut on pin 38 try reconnecting that?

Alan

Ed Scherer

Haven't had a chance to fully absorb everything that's happened since I left earlier today, but I'd recommend resuming troubleshooting working backwards from the passenger side motor.

After seeing how the output side of things works related to the motors (12 V at rest, 0 V/12 V to drive the motors, flipped polarity as appropriate to change directions), I'd be taking a serious look at one of the wires to the passenger side motor being either shorted to ground or shorted to something else that's often at ground (keeping in mind that 99% of the time that something shorts, it shorts to chassis ground ).

If the problem is actually on the input side after all (and assuming that the controller is OK, which I think you've already verified, Bill, since you've swapped controllers), I have a hard time imagining that it could be anything other than something having to do with the "red line" from the passenger window switch, since everything else is common to all the window/sunroof switches and so symmetrical. Ditto with all the other inputs (how/why would they only affect the passenger window motor?).

Gotta go; I'll check back in a few hours.

Alan, you seem to have a good handle on the theory; I hope to be able to fill in the gaps on real-world measurements when we need to know something.

Ah... the joys of "black boxes."

Good luck, Bill. Hope your persistence continues, as we're now armed with information about normal behavior, so if nothing else, at least you can measure things and see how they compare.

Bill Ball

I swapped my sunroof motor in - same problem...

Here is the latest observations that may help figure out where the problems is.

There is only 12V to the sunroof motor IF the jumper between window controller pin 38 (function unknown) and 33 (passenger motor) is intact. In that case, the passenger window goes down and the sunroof motor runs (closed direction) all the time regardless of anything else except battery power. Unplug all the switches and this still will happen. Unplug the sunroof motor, and neither of these events happen.

However, leave the sunroof motor plugged and even with the 38-33 jumper cut, move either driver window UP with their switch and the sunroof motor runs.

Egad!

Alan

Bill test both sunroof motor terminals to its case for ohms - what do you get?

Alan

Bill Ball

Only express OPEN works on BOTH sides. Express CLOSE does not work on the driver side, nor does it close during the LOCKED auto close procedure no matter how long I hold the key. Also, the sunroof does an express OPEN until you hit the button a second time to stop it.

Ed Scherer

OK, I haven't really left yet (but really, I'm about to!). I'll think about this while I'm gone.

That sunroof motor running constantly is a pretty big clue, IMHO. Perhaps the short is in its wiring. I don't want to state that with any confidence, though, until I can think it through more (and I don't think I want to be carrying schematics to the hospital! )

Bill Ball

The motor? Remember it does it with my sunroof motor plugged in as well as the original. Also, the harness is delivering 12V on T42 pin 6 (as long as 38-33 is connected) and ground on pin 5, so I don't think it's the motor. Anyway, I measured each lead versus the case and it's infinite.

Also, interestingly, the 12V and 100ma on pin 15 I was finding is coming from the controller. As soon as it gets battery power on pin 37, the controller outputs 12V on pin 15. As soon as 15 is grounded, a relay flips, and it flips back if ground is broken. May be normal, but I heard no relay click when I installed the same box in Jim's car.

Bill Ball

I measured voltage at each pin on the window controller, resting state.

13 (sunroof switch) 7mv
14 (driver windiow switch) 7mv
15 (door pin switch) 13mv (12V when lead is cut as long as the controller has battery power via 37.)
16 (GN wire to all switches) 12V
17 (BK wire to all switches) 7.5V
21 (RE wire to passenger window switch) 7mv
22 (jumper to 17) 7.5V
26 (alarm and central locks) 12V
31 (ground MPV) 0
32 (sunroof motor) 0
33 w/ 38 jumper wire cut (passenger window motor) 0----->400mv-->0 (gradually rises oiver 15 seconds, drops repeats)
34 (driver window motor) - same as above
35 (common motor) - same as above
36 (ignition switched power) 0 then 12V with ignition on.
37 (battery power) 12V
38 cut from 33 (unknown) 12V - I need to check this one again.

The behavior of 33-35 strike me as odd. [NOTE: Ed showed 12V at all of these in post #107, but with 33-38 jumped as it should be. If I had 33-38 jumped, I think there would have been 12 Volts on all but 35.] The fact that 32 was zero, different from the others is puzzling too. [LATE EDIT: that was a good clue...]

Ed Scherer

This is unrelated to your previous post, Bill.

A few more ideas (forgive terseness, posting using phone):

• At controller, verify that ground pin really stays near 0 V, even when motors are being driven; consider adding supplemental ground wire to this pin
• Remove output connector (white IIRC) at controller. Using 12 V source with sufficient current capacity, test each of the three motors both forward and reverse by supplying +12 V or -12 V at the appropriate pins on the unplugged connector on the output harness.

I've got more ideas, based on trying to isolate things more and changing as few variables as possible per test. But it'll have to wait until I get home again. Phones suck for long posts!

Bill Ball

Thanks for the ideas Ed. More fun tomorrow. It's about time for the naked headstand.

Alan

Bill - 32-35 are all wrong... Unplug all the window controller connections. On the loom plug side test ohms to ground between each of the motor connections 32, 33, 34 & 35.

I think you may find that 32 is shorted to ground and this seems to be the problem. All of these should be floating to ground (infinite ohms)

Alan