Bill Ball

Ed: Remove the 10mm nut then bend the bracket up (too hard to get to the Philips with the seat in) and the box will come out. Alan posted a list of the pins and their function. I had already figured that out, but Alan's list is posted in this thread.

I'm at Sharktoberfest, so I'll get back to testing on Monday. I'm convinced pin 15 is getting a improper feed from the door pin circuit. [EDIT LATER: Not so. Turns out the voltage is coming from pin 15 on the window controller, not the other way around.] It happens even with the interior light relay pulled, so pin T on the relay is not a factor.

More on Monday.

Ed Scherer

Didn't get to this over the weekend, but I got set up to take measurements this morning and will record a few things and post them ASAP. Then I'll leave things accessible for awhile in case any particular questions arise that require more testing.

FWIW, here's the setup I've got right now. I was happy to find that all the connectors are all nicely probe-able from behind. I found one of the seat rail mounting bolts to be a convenient chassis ground point.






Measurements and Observations

OK, I'm just going to keep updating this post with various results as I measure and test various things.

I'll maintain a section on each pin of the window/sunroof controller, along with a final section of any additional observations not necessarily related to any particular pin.


Overall status: both inputs and outputs profiled


13 Sunroof Switch In

With ignition off, key out:

0.02 V at rest, 6.44 V with switch in "open it" position, 5.37 V with switch in "close it" position

With ignition on:

0.04 V at rest, 5.60 V with switch in "open it" position, 4.77 V with switch in "close it" position


14 Drivers Switch In

With ignition off, key out:

0.02 V at rest, 6.43 V with switch in "open it" position, 5.37 V with switch in "close it" position

With ignition on:

0.02 V at rest, 5.55 V with switch in "open it" position, 4.72 V with switch in "close it" position


15 Interior Lights Pin Switch

0.014 V with a door open (a pin switch closed), 12.01 V with all doors closed (no pin switch open) and ignition on, 14.04 V with all doors closed (no pin switch open) and ignition off (after interior lights turn off).

Interesting observations:

• with a multi-LED-lamp load attached: 0.016 V with a door open (a pin switch closed), 8.97 V with all doors closed (no pin switch open) and ignition on, 9.74 V with all doors closed (no pin switch open) and ignition off; after cycling ignition, though, I noticed that last voltage changed to 5.01 V.
• with a multi-LED-lamp load attached, the interior lights do not turn off

Discussion:

I'm using an LED lamp load here and there to try to distinguish between a high-impedance "12 V source" vs. a useful 12 V that can actually drive a non-trivial load. Trying it on this circuit, though, indicates that by pulling this voltage down a little (via the LED load) actually prevents the interior delay relay from releasing. So: it would be wise to assure that no parsitic circuitry (alarms or whatever) are misusing this signal.

16 Green Wire to all Switches

With ignition off, key out:

13.50 V at rest, 6.58 V with any switch in "open it" position, 13.50 V with any switch in "close it" position

With ignition on:

11.56 V at rest, 5.56 V with any switch in "open it" position, 11.26 V with any switch in "close it" position


17 Black Wire to all Switches

With ignition off, key out:

8.73 V at rest, 8.73 V with any switch in "open it" position, 5.34 V with any switch in "close it" position

With ignition on:

7.66 V at rest, 7.53 V with any switch in "open it" position, 4.73 V with any switch in "close it" position


21 Passenger Switch In

With ignition off, key out:

0.03 V at rest, 6.41 V with switch in "open it" position, 5.36 V with switch in "close it" position

With ignition on:

0.04 V at rest, 5.52 V with switch in "open it" position, 4.72 V with switch in "close it" position


22 Config In only USA = plug to Pin 17 (ROW open)

Not measured; no plans to measure. Same as pin 17 for U.S.


26 Lock In (for all close mode)

With ignition on: 12.06 V
With ignition off: 13.71 V
With ignition off, doors closed, and door lock key in "lock/close" position: 0.12 V


31 Ground

Not measured; no plans to measure; assumed ~0 V.


32 Sunroof Motor Drive

All measurements with ignition on.

With sunroof switch in rest/close/open and sunroof resting/closing/opening: 12.33 V, 0.75 V, 11.37 V
With driver's window switch in rest/close/open and driver's window resting/closing/opening: 12.29 V, 11.31 V, 0.47 V
With passenger's window switch in rest/close/open and passenger's window resting/closing/opening: 12.30 V, 11.41 V, 0.47 V


33 Passenger Motor Drive

All measurements with ignition on.

With sunroof switch in rest/close/open and sunroof resting/closing/opening: 12.32 V, 11.10 V, 0.59 V
With driver's window switch in rest/close/open and driver's window resting/closing/opening: 12.40 V, 11.42 V, 0.46 V
With passenger's window switch in rest/close/open and passenger's window resting/closing/opening: 12.32 V, 0.54 V, 11.60 V


34 Drivers Motor Drive (note for non-sunroof plug 32 & 34)

All measurements with ignition on.

With sunroof switch in rest/close/open and sunroof resting/closing/opening: 12.35 V, 11.22 V, 0.55 V
With driver's window switch in rest/close/open and driver's window resting/closing/opening: 12.36 V, 0.56 V, 11.75 V
With passenger's window switch in rest/close/open and passenger's window resting/closing/opening: 12.29 V, 11.46 V, 0.45 V


35 Common Motor Drive Connection

12.48 V at rest, 11.53 V with a window closing, 0.38 V with a window opening. Assumed same for sunroof closing/opening.


36 Ignition Power In

Not measured; no plans to measure; assumed ~12.8 V when ignition on, assumed ~0 V or floating with power off.

37 Battery Power In

Not measured; no plans to measure; assumed ~12.8 V.


38 Passenger Motor Drive (config for LHD/RHD non-express?)

Not measured; no plans to measure; should be same pas pin 33.


Miscellaneous Interesting Observations

• On auto-driver's-side-window-all-the-way-down, the sensing of stall current seems to vary. Sometimes, the drive current is stopped in under a second. At other times, it takes a few (maybe up to 5 or so) seconds.
• It's hard to tell, but stall current sensing for motors may not work when vehicle battery voltage is low (in which case a timeout seems to apply).
• The delta stall voltage for the driver's side window motor seems to be about a volt or so on pin 35.

Bill Ball

Ed:

Sincerist thanks for your efforts here!

When pin 15 goes from 0 (or close enough to it) to 12 (or 9) V and back, do you hear the relays click? What amperages do you measure on pin15? I see a few ma when at 0 and 100 ma at 12V and the relays respond. Not so in Jim's GTS with the same controller box.

Ed Scherer

Sure, Bill. After years of watching you help me and others, I'll do what I can to return the favor!
I'm just updating post #107 with more results. When I'm done with this round of updates, I'll see if I can answer the questions you've just posted. I'll also try to characterize what's normal in terms of hearing relays click (I don't have answers to your questions at this point, but can get them soon).

Update: just got a phone call and have a family emergency to deal with. Unknown when I can get back to this.

Alan

OK so summarising what Ed has shown as I understand it:

1) interior light pin switches as expected ~12v inactive ~0v active*
2) Key lock switch as expected 12v inactive ~0v active
3) Motor drivers are indeed 12v at rest as my notes initially indicated - Bill you need to check this.
4) I updated my diagram below with Ed's results (including motor drive polarities)
5) The switch inputs levels still puzzle me a bit - I'm thinking about it but it seem odd...

* Ed's notes on the interior light pin switches match my thinking - it droops a lot if it tries to drive much current due to a 'lightweight' pull-up - ? maybe something else is connected on here?

Alan

Bill Ball

Going back over the thread, let me answer this...

Holding key in locked position, the passenger window goes up, then the sunroof, but the driver window does not go up. Also, these actions only happen as long as I hold the key in the locked position.

With pin 38 jumpered to 33 as it is normally, the passenger window will go back down as soon as I release the key hold.

I'm getting ready to do the naked headstand next.

Alan

Ed - this may in fact indicate that its not detecting the stall at all and is instead timing out. It knows an approximate max closing delay (built in) and after this time (+ a buffer) it just stops. It has no idea of the window position so uses the same delay on every opening/closing - if the window was already ~half closed the delay after actual full opening/full closure will just be longer...

BTW Ed do you have the window controller configured for ROW mode? If not I recommend it highly - express up on the drivers door with ignition on and windows powered whenever a door is open. Both are nice - if you ever forget to close a window - you just open door - lean in and its active again...

Alan

PS: DOT doesn't like it - reason enough to do it in my book - since so many of their rules are retarded.

Bill Ball

Aha! Again, going back over this...

I just noticed that the sunroof and passenger window were moving together once in a while when working the passenger window or sunroof switch. I disconnected T42 and the passenger window no longer goes down spontaneously and pin 38 no longer has 12V to send to pin 33, which was sending that window down.

I measure 12V on the wire to pin1 [CORRECTED: pin 6] of T42. That's BK/GN from pin 35 of the controller. That is the common output. So, that's normal.

What next?

Alan

Pin1 of T42 is the tailgate unlock signal to the alarm module with an internal pull-up - it should be weakly at 12v (pull-up resistor).

The sunroof motor should be on pins 5 & 6...?

Alan

Bill Ball

OK, I unplugged the sunroof motor and plugged T42 back together - passenger window no longer goes down spontaneously - it's a short inside the sunroof motor.

Bill Ball

Right, I read it it incorrectly...it was 6. Edited note. I think we've got it now. THANKS!!!

Bill Ball

OK, the window [correction: sunroof] motor is the culprit in the passenger window going down. [Coirrection: read on...it's probably not the sunroof motor].

The windows still will not operate with the doors closed. And the driver window only goes up in response to the window switch. It will not go up in the auto up mode with the door lock.

I cut the door pin input to pin 15. No change. If I ground pin 15, the relay clicks in the same way as if I push a door pin. So, the 100ma draw in itself may have been a red herring. Still I didn't hear the relays click in Jim's car except initially when the brown plug was put on. No relays clicking in response to the door pins.

We're getting close!

So, I'll take the sunroof motor out. When I plug it in it takes a minute before the door window goes down, but it is the problem.

Alan

Bill - I tested my car and I cannot hear any relay clicking with the door pin switch - yet it switches the module on & off as it should... quieter relays?

Sounds like you think there is progress but now have remaining drivers window issues and power switching still isn't quite right?

Alan

Bill Ball

The controller is the same PN and I have a brand new one that does the same thing. It's not the pin switch circuit that is the culprit, though, as I cut that and grounded 15 and the windows still only operate with the ignition on. Also, the driver window not going up in locked auto mode is a puzzler. Do you know how auto locked mode works?

It was the SUNROOF motor that was shorting. It seemed to work fine. I opened it up and it looks like there is what looks like a capacitor across the brushes. That may be the problem, but I think the only answer for that is to buy a used motor from 928 Intl. [CORRECTION: I rethought this and believe it's not the motor. See further on.]

Alan

Well as to how it works - only by obervation and having eyeballed the circuit. It detects the key in the lock mode for >~2 sec than starts the sequence - passenger window first, then sunroof & then drivers window. You have to hold the key in lock the whole time - each will complete closing and the motor stall will be sensed to move to the next to close. I have tested this mode with half closed windows/sunroof & it does work correctly on my car - sensing the closure (stall current spike) & immediately moving to the next in sequence - including immediately moving on if the pass window or sunroof is already closed.

The microprocesor controls the sequence. Does your express-up work on the drivers window - since that is also microprocessor controlled - how about its express-down (ditto).

Alan