Bill Ball

Leaving to get smogged then to Mark's house. Oooops! Almost forgot the PorKen tool! Have LC-1 and Spanner and goosed LH chip. Oh, and if I pass smog today, my SC goes back in his week!

mark kibort

well, there we go. the 85 cams are a 4 degree retard right out of the box with stock timing. so that should help. if we need to do another degree or two, we can. Also, i can disconnect the knocksensors or the WOT switch to pull out some timing. (not quite sure about this as im not familar with all the things that those two items can do)

I have the colder plugs coming, 5 DC's and all this should be a good starting point. Its done and ready to go in!!

1.5 weeks later and we are ready to go racing in a day or so with a new 928 Renn list'er stroker motor!

I do want it to start this week, as i think its most important to get some miles on the motor, as well as work out and optimize tuning issues. (ie mixture and make sure there is no pinging)


mk

James-man

Time to schedule some Bay Area volunteers to drive Marks car round the clock for break-in while he eats, sleeps and works?????

anonymousagain

MK, once you've got the timing, mixture, etc sorted, make sure you break it in hard to seat the rings. Want to make sure you yield all that baby will produce!

oh, and I'll volunteer for some of the breakin runs

marlinspike

I don't know with these Nikasil motors, but I know with Alusil motors it's a good idea to run some EOS in the engine (that is in the oil, in addition to all the assembly lube you used when building the engine) and when you first start it run it for 30 minutes at 1500 to 1700 rpm (do not idle it), flush out the oil, drive for 500 miles with low-rpm medium to medium-high loads and then change the oil again (still using conventional oil) and now drive it around giving it full throttle for a few seconds here and a few seconds there, change the oil after 1000 miles and now start giving it full throttle for 10 seconds here and there, but other than that drive how you normally do, and then after 2000 more miles (so 3500 total) change over to a synthetic. The Alusil engines don't start turning back consistent oil analysis until after 5 or 6 thousand miles.

Of course, Nikasil may be entirely different. Charles Navarro is the man to ask about JE Pistons and Nikasil. Real stand up guy too. www.lnengineering.com

PorKen

Sorta. -4° cam on the intake, compared to the GT cam, but the exhaust cam is the same, which is more important at the high rpm range you'll be using.

I would start at -1° (crank, which the 32V'r measures), and go from there. Measured cold, set bank 1-4: -3°, and bank 5-8: -1°.

mark kibort

remember i noticed a marked improvement by putting both cams at the same setting. the holbert cams were set at 2mm per side depression at 20degrees crank advance, so thats what i set the next set (85s) to. However, i have video of the first settings of the new cams set at 1.7mm to 2.0 (passenger and driver side) and a dyno as well as engine sound was off. down 13 hp. when i changed the cams at the track to equal, the sound came back, and later dyno showed the 10hp was restored. (back to 318rwhp).

I think someone needs to do a test to make sure this is what really happens at tempurature. I should just drill a pin hole in the cover near the #1 cam lifter so i can measure this without ANY taking apart of the engine or cam covers.

Im not too worried. i think a solid 4 degrees on the intake is going to help.
what does retarding the exhaust do?? (1 degree? are we not shaving hairs here)

mk

mark kibort

I know mark and joe fan have less than 1000 miles on the engine after 5 years of racing!!

I think the plan will be:
oil installed will be dyno oil 30weight with STP added (for lead and other things that help)

after 500 miles of break in, Amzoil installed and we are going to the dyno and then racing! that is MUCH more than ANY race car in the world would ever see. Im very lucky to be able to drive it on the street to work any bugs out and break it in properly. anderson and fan will have to drive it for 30min in practice and then go racing after maybe 30mins of idling and dynoing.

MK

marlinspike

STP is fine, though I prefer General Motors EOS or Joe Gibbs BR (which is not an additive). You don't need to do the break-in I suggest, but it tends to give the most compression. I used to live in between "Race City USA" (this is what they wrote on their police cars...next to a checkered flag) and Lake Norman Business Park (which is code for shops that build cars and parts that you see when you watch NASCAR). I know the NASCAR guys do nothing for break in other than 30 minutes on a dyno varying between medium and heavy loads at low to medium rpms (nobody will tell you anything exact, but that much they will tell you), but they aren't running Alusil engines.

If you're going to treat it like a real racing engine (which includes no cats), I recommend some Joe Gibbs oil once it's broken in. It really will give you another 1 to 2% more hp, but the oil breaks down after a few hundred miles. The Penske guys use Mobil 1, but I can't get a straight answer as to whether the Mobil 1 run in their race cars is the same as any of the Mobil 1 sold to the public.

PorKen

You can set the cam timing equal with the engine hot (at least warm).

The timing does change as the engine expands.



Use crank degrees, only. Mixing cam and crank degrees gets confusing quickly.

You cannot set the intake and exhaust independently. The exhaust cam is more important at high rpm, and the S³ and GT have the same exhaust timing. -1° (crank) is a good starting point.

hacker-pschorr

This stuff?

There was a very extensive thread on this last year (trying to find it). EOS is a high ZDDP content oil additive. IIRC one of the highest out there. Since Mark is using an SL or SJ oil (AMZoil Racing) it's already very high in ZDDP when compared to the current SM oils (what you will find on the shelf today). This is why many people are switching to gas friendly diesel oil or air cooled motorcycle oil, since they have a high level of ZDDP.
ZDDP is especially important with air cooled motors.

Todd (the engine builder) adds a bottle of STP Oil Treatment with every oil change. It's simply a think oil with a very high level of ZDDP, very similar to EOS. Except IIRC EOS has 5-6 times the ZDDP than STP.
STP is probably better for each oil change, EOS is designed for a new motor to flush through a very high level of ZDDP during initial startup.

So I agree, a bottle of EOS isn't going to hurt anything and very well could help it break in smoother. If for some reason you cannot find it, dump in a bottle or two of STP - the blue bottle (I think they also sell it in a red bottle for "heavy duty"). It's easy to tell if the stuff you are looking at is high in ZDDP, look for the eye warning on the back.






Sorry......


Oh no.......you didn't just go there...........

marlinspike

[QUOTE=Hacker-Pschorr;5698299]This stuff?

There was a very extensive thread on this last year (trying to find it). EOS is a high ZDDP content oil additive. IIRC one of the highest out there. Since Mark is using an SL or SJ oil (AMZoil Racing) it's already very high in ZDDP when compared to the current SM oils (what you will find on the shelf today). This is why many people are switching to gas friendly diesel oil or air cooled motorcycle oil, since they have a high level of ZDDP.
ZDDP is especially important with air cooled motors.

Todd (the engine builder) adds a bottle of STP Oil Treatment with every oil change. It's simply a think oil with a very high level of ZDDP, very similar to EOS. Except IIRC EOS has 5-6 times the ZDDP than STP.
STP is probably better for each oil change, EOS is designed for a new motor to flush through a very high level of ZDDP during initial startup.

So I agree, a bottle of EOS isn't going to hurt anything and very well could help it break in smoother. If for some reason you cannot find it, dump in a bottle or two of STP - the blue bottle (I think they also sell it in a red bottle for "heavy duty"). It's easy to tell if the stuff you are looking at is high in ZDDP, look for the eye warning on the back.


Sorry......


Yeah, I meant EOS only for the first oil that goes in the car. Obviously, the same goes for Joe Gibbs BR. I don't know that it's really necessary to run STP in with every oil change, but I guess if the builder says so. If the weights available are good for your application, you could always just buy Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil and not mess around with additives on every oil change other than the first.

BTW, not sure why I said Joe Gibbs oil will add 1 to 2%. I meant to say 1 to 2 hp.

hacker-pschorr

Sorry, didn't mean to give that impression, just sharing some info.

Todd doesn't use synthetic oil either, he uses this stuff. When I run out of Royal Purple I'm going to switch:

http://www.le-inc.com/products.jsp?productID=258

EDIT - that might not be the exact oil Todd uses, it is the correct brand. I may have grabbed the wrong link and their site seams to be on the fritz.

mark kibort

Interesting!

We tryied the Porken tool and it was WAY off on the Holbert car. Bill and i dont know why, but the porken tool had one side of the engine (driver side) at 6 degrees advanced( cam) and and other side (passenger ) was 2 degrees advnanced. However, the micrometer and the dial indicator were checked near 20x to make sure, and they were set at spec. actually a little advanced on the passenger side vs the manuals. 2mm and 2mm driver and passenger sides.

The dial indicator was to double check my work with a micrometer. (bill saw my technique) Its probably +/1 .1mm. The porken too said 6 degrees advanced!! that would be 3 degrees of crank movement off. no way! 3 degrees of crank movement is very close to .25mm of lift on the #1 or #6 lifters.

I done know how it could be off, and more importantly, why the differnce between the two sides. Unless the Porken tool incorporates the hot engine expansion rate of near 4 cam degrees, (passenger vs driver side)

Remember, we checked the cam timing very carefully with a dial indicator showing it being almost perfect at 2mm for 20 degees movemnet of the cam lifter a side ( how the holbert car was set up when checked originally)

Mk



QUOTE=PorKen;5698291]You can set the cam timing equal with the engine hot (at least warm).

The timing does change as the engine expands.



Use crank degrees, only. Mixing cam and crank degrees gets confusing quickly.

You cannot set the intake and exhaust independently. The exhaust cam is more important at high rpm, and the S³ and GT have the same exhaust timing. -1° (crank) is a good starting point.[/QUOTE]

mark kibort

ENGINE IS TOTALLY DONE!!

Ready for install tomorrow! Bill came over and we did some porken tool checks that left him scratching his head. after that, we got the intake on and wired the harnesses on. Its alll ready to go.

now, the headache which is the header installation.

Might be running before the weekend.

mk