View Poll Results: Pull the Holbert engine and transplant it with the 6.5 liter Rennlist engine?
Pull the engine and replace it now and start winning some races!
31
54.39%
Run the Holbert engine 'til it blows, or run mobil 1 in it and see what happens
3
5.26%
Replace it after this season
17
29.82%
Sell the Holbert car on the aution TV show and put the 6.5 liter in a stock S4 race car conversion
6
10.53%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll
Should The Holbert 928 get an engine transplant mid season, or ever?
07-30-2008, 04:09 AM
#76
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
07-30-2008, 07:11 AM
#77
Fabio is correct, forged pistons are typically much looser when cold, to allow for expansion in the bores. This also means that you don't get on it until the engine is hot. Some of the stoutest engines I have ever run had sloppy pistons.
BTW, when I am doing an engine, I commit to doing something on it every day. Usually, once I get out there, I wind up doing a little more. I have to say that there is no such thing as too clean or too careful in engine building, but don't let Porsche Perfection Paralysis take over. Slow and steady wins the race.
BTW, when I am doing an engine, I commit to doing something on it every day. Usually, once I get out there, I wind up doing a little more. I have to say that there is no such thing as too clean or too careful in engine building, but don't let Porsche Perfection Paralysis take over. Slow and steady wins the race.
07-30-2008, 09:15 PM
#81
Drifting
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just don't complain if you have problems and have to miss the rest of the races of this season, while fixing problems.
Like someone said, what if it smokes like a chimney, and has serious problems?
Will you be able to get the Holbert engine back together to make the next race?
And if you do, who is to say you won't have some problem with something you
forgot to do on re-assembly, while in a rush? Miss a vacuum line, something
not on right, pop an accessory belt due to overtightening? And you may have
minor problems with the new engine too.
I want you to get out there and win too.
But at the same time, I think there is more of a chance for mistakes when you do a project like this in a rush.
So as long as you are willing to accept the possible outcomes, then go for it.
But don't whine if you miss the rest of the season due to teething problems...
07-30-2008, 10:01 PM
#82
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Ok, I'm going over to Mark's to look at the situation on Friday. You know my initial inclination was to "just do it". Understanding this is a stroker, that sounds rather cavalier, doesn't it? The question is, what would change if Mark waited? Mark isn't going to change anything. What he plans to do now is what he would do then.
If you read Mark's replies in this thread, he is fairly committed to a certain path. There will be no big-valve heads here. There will be no I-J scraper and Simard pan spacer. No dry sump. I don't believe he has an Accusump. I doubt he has the resources/inclination for Sharktuning, if it could be had. Sacrilege!
Nine quarts of Amsoil and hit the track! That's Mark!
If you had this shortblock, just what would you do? How much more would it cost?
I hope he at least plans to freshen up the heads, but I doubt it.
If you read Mark's replies in this thread, he is fairly committed to a certain path. There will be no big-valve heads here. There will be no I-J scraper and Simard pan spacer. No dry sump. I don't believe he has an Accusump. I doubt he has the resources/inclination for Sharktuning, if it could be had. Sacrilege!
Nine quarts of Amsoil and hit the track! That's Mark!
If you had this shortblock, just what would you do? How much more would it cost?
I hope he at least plans to freshen up the heads, but I doubt it.
07-30-2008, 10:11 PM
#83
Bigger valves on a large engine is what has been done for ages. It seems a waste not to.
Leave the bottom end - fine. But do something to the most important parts - the heads. Put spacers on the intake. Use NEW VALVE SPRINGS.
Oil cooler - needs replacing - so many "parts" have fallen off that engine its probably got a little city building in there. Same for the oil pan - it at least needs to be CLEANED. Jesus.
People want to smirk at my attitude on this, but seriously, this is a gem of a motor, and it would be a shame to run it through Mark's Jury-rigged WHAM-BAM-THANKYOUMAN circus. Please speak to Dennis about who shaved the heads. If he doesn't like them, send them down here to Costa Mesa (Performance developments) - or even crazier - Get ahold of Marc (Thomas) (Gasp!) and find out from him where to get some quick good work done. He should still have some contacts. For all of his faults, he still knew alot about these cars.
New tensioners - there was obviously a problem before with the current ones wrt the teeth on the cams. New seals - does he have a new seal set ready? Rebalance the injectors and get them cleaned.
But what the hell do I know. I vacuumed the garage before I started building my engine and then didn't open the door until the partial engine was bagged for the next time.
Last edited by BC; 07-31-2008 at 01:38 AM.
07-30-2008, 10:31 PM
#84
Man of many SIGs
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Why would you take an engine this expensive on the track without a scraper or accusump? Not even a spacer? I can understand not having the $$ for a dry sump but accusumps are relatively cheap.
Last edited by Fabio421; 07-31-2008 at 01:46 AM.
07-30-2008, 10:39 PM
#85
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Same for the oil pan - it at least needs to be CLEANED. Jesus.
Why would you take an engine this expensive on the track without a scraper or accusump? Not even a spacer?
07-31-2008, 01:39 AM
#86
07-31-2008, 02:27 AM
#87
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I dont think the bigger valves will buy that much. remember the goal is to be near 400rwhp, not over it. it will be a nice match with the set up i currently run. Spacers on the intake. yes, i would buy those, even though we did a test on the holbert car and they didnt do anything. Im even thinking of doing some porting work on the intake.
the oil is always clean, i cut the filter and nothing has ever been in there for over 7 years of use, and blackstone comes back with a very clean bill of heath based on several oil sample submissions, so why do you think so many things are in the oil cooler?
Remember, what ever im doing, its lasted for 7 full racing seasons.
I just replaced the cams seals when i did the cams a few years ago. they are cheap so ill probably get new ones. The injectors are new'ish from George and are 30lb injectors with the proper seals.
I dont think i need to shave the heads, but i could have them cleaned a little to make sure they are flat and the surface is nice to mate with the cometic gaskets. (which i have been instructed to use)
the tensioners are in good shape, I guess, as i havent lost any teeth in the 4 years the new cams have been in there. There was a problem with one of them, but a seal clip was loose. I fixed that. I dont think that was the issue, as both sides and all 4 cams lost 1-2 teeth.
Im pretty careful upon assembly of these things.
I think it will be fine. worst case, i might be down on HP compared to the big valve strokers, but if it is within 20hp, I will be find with that. hoping for 390rwhp.
Mk
the oil is always clean, i cut the filter and nothing has ever been in there for over 7 years of use, and blackstone comes back with a very clean bill of heath based on several oil sample submissions, so why do you think so many things are in the oil cooler?
Remember, what ever im doing, its lasted for 7 full racing seasons.
I just replaced the cams seals when i did the cams a few years ago. they are cheap so ill probably get new ones. The injectors are new'ish from George and are 30lb injectors with the proper seals.
I dont think i need to shave the heads, but i could have them cleaned a little to make sure they are flat and the surface is nice to mate with the cometic gaskets. (which i have been instructed to use)
the tensioners are in good shape, I guess, as i havent lost any teeth in the 4 years the new cams have been in there. There was a problem with one of them, but a seal clip was loose. I fixed that. I dont think that was the issue, as both sides and all 4 cams lost 1-2 teeth.
Im pretty careful upon assembly of these things.
I think it will be fine. worst case, i might be down on HP compared to the big valve strokers, but if it is within 20hp, I will be find with that. hoping for 390rwhp.
Mk
Resurfacing the heads is a must Bill. Please.
Bigger valves on a large engine is what has been done for ages. It seems a waste not to.
Leave the bottom end - fine. But do something to the most important parts - the heads. Put spacers on the intake. Use NEW VALVE SPRINGS.
Oil cooler - needs replacing - so many "parts" have fallen off that engine its probably got a little city building in there. Same for the oil pan - it at least needs to be CLEANED. Jesus.
People want to smirk at my attitude on this, but seriously, this is a gem of a motor, and it would be a shame to run it through Mark's Jury-rigged WHAM-BAM-THANKYOUMAN circus.
Please speak to Dennis about who shaved the heads. If he doesn't like them, send them down here to Costa Mesa (Performance developments) - or even crazier - Get ahold of Marc (Thomas) (Gasp!) and find out from him where to get some quick good work done. He should still have some contacts. For all of his faults, he still knew alot about these cars.
New tensioners - there was obviously a problem before with the current ones wrt the teeth on the cams. New seals - does he have a new seal set ready? Rebalance the injectors and get them cleaned.
But what the hell do I know. I vacuumed the garage before I started building my engine and then didn't open the door until the partial engine was bagged for the next time.
Bigger valves on a large engine is what has been done for ages. It seems a waste not to.
Leave the bottom end - fine. But do something to the most important parts - the heads. Put spacers on the intake. Use NEW VALVE SPRINGS.
Oil cooler - needs replacing - so many "parts" have fallen off that engine its probably got a little city building in there. Same for the oil pan - it at least needs to be CLEANED. Jesus.
People want to smirk at my attitude on this, but seriously, this is a gem of a motor, and it would be a shame to run it through Mark's Jury-rigged WHAM-BAM-THANKYOUMAN circus. Please speak to Dennis about who shaved the heads. If he doesn't like them, send them down here to Costa Mesa (Performance developments) - or even crazier - Get ahold of Marc (Thomas) (Gasp!) and find out from him where to get some quick good work done. He should still have some contacts. For all of his faults, he still knew alot about these cars.
New tensioners - there was obviously a problem before with the current ones wrt the teeth on the cams. New seals - does he have a new seal set ready? Rebalance the injectors and get them cleaned.
But what the hell do I know. I vacuumed the garage before I started building my engine and then didn't open the door until the partial engine was bagged for the next time.
07-31-2008, 02:38 AM
#88
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Ive done this a few times and have had NO issues. my first motor raced for a season with out any issues. Scots has been perfect. the holbert car has run for 7 full racing seasons with out, any issues besides a defective water pump and those cam teeth, but I didnt loose any racing or score any DNFs.
If it smoke and the motor has got something major wrong, well, thats the chance im willing to take, knowing that I might be missing the following months race. popping accesory belts, missing vacuum lines (i dont use any) are all things i go through pretty carefully. Again, its not like i havent done this before. In fact scots is running great, and he raced the next weekend after his engine went in. no issues!
Whats the odds of the holbert engine lasting the next 5 races? Heck, it already has 103 racing days on it!! Im starting to use coolant, power seems to be down by about 10 hp (not bad for 7 race seasons) and I have a chance to win a championship if this stroker goes in and gives me even only 50-60 more HP!
Remember anderson ran with no tuning except for some runs on a dyno and some tweaks on a fuel regulator. he ran 420rwhp and not any more for doing a few special things on the intake ( larger throttle body didnt do anything, extrude hone intake didnt do anything) the CF intake was the big HP adder on his car.
anyway, we will see what a stock 928S4 injection / electronic system will make sitting on top of a "Gem" of a short block.
mk
Just don't complain if you have problems and have to miss the rest of the races of this season, while fixing problems.
Like someone said, what if it smokes like a chimney, and has serious problems?
Will you be able to get the Holbert engine back together to make the next race?
And if you do, who is to say you won't have some problem with something you
forgot to do on re-assembly, while in a rush? Miss a vacuum line, something
not on right, pop an accessory belt due to overtightening? And you may have
minor problems with the new engine too.
I want you to get out there and win too.
But at the same time, I think there is more of a chance for mistakes when you do a project like this in a rush.
So as long as you are willing to accept the possible outcomes, then go for it.
But don't whine if you miss the rest of the season due to teething problems...
If it smoke and the motor has got something major wrong, well, thats the chance im willing to take, knowing that I might be missing the following months race. popping accesory belts, missing vacuum lines (i dont use any) are all things i go through pretty carefully. Again, its not like i havent done this before. In fact scots is running great, and he raced the next weekend after his engine went in. no issues!
Whats the odds of the holbert engine lasting the next 5 races? Heck, it already has 103 racing days on it!! Im starting to use coolant, power seems to be down by about 10 hp (not bad for 7 race seasons) and I have a chance to win a championship if this stroker goes in and gives me even only 50-60 more HP!
Remember anderson ran with no tuning except for some runs on a dyno and some tweaks on a fuel regulator. he ran 420rwhp and not any more for doing a few special things on the intake ( larger throttle body didnt do anything, extrude hone intake didnt do anything) the CF intake was the big HP adder on his car.
anyway, we will see what a stock 928S4 injection / electronic system will make sitting on top of a "Gem" of a short block.
mk
Just don't complain if you have problems and have to miss the rest of the races of this season, while fixing problems.
Like someone said, what if it smokes like a chimney, and has serious problems?
Will you be able to get the Holbert engine back together to make the next race?
And if you do, who is to say you won't have some problem with something you
forgot to do on re-assembly, while in a rush? Miss a vacuum line, something
not on right, pop an accessory belt due to overtightening? And you may have
minor problems with the new engine too.
I want you to get out there and win too.
But at the same time, I think there is more of a chance for mistakes when you do a project like this in a rush.
So as long as you are willing to accept the possible outcomes, then go for it.
But don't whine if you miss the rest of the season due to teething problems...
07-31-2008, 02:42 AM
#89
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
WELL, the process has started.
Put a couple of hours in to the Holbert car tonight. got the passenger side headers off, and the clutch out. Hopefully, Bill and I can get the driver side headers off, pull out the radiator and get this thing ready for the great swap!
mk
Put a couple of hours in to the Holbert car tonight. got the passenger side headers off, and the clutch out. Hopefully, Bill and I can get the driver side headers off, pull out the radiator and get this thing ready for the great swap!
mk
07-31-2008, 03:22 AM
#90
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
First things first: Are you going to run race gas or 91 octane? Now would be the time to make that decision.
What's the bore & stroke? Also what's the rod length? Is it a standard 5.85" or something else?
Also what's the piston dish volume? You might want to cc the pistons to see where you are right now.
With the above info along w/ the timing of the closing of the S3 intake cams, you could figure out the dynamic compression ratio. With the DCR, you could find out what kind of gas you'd need to run with the parts you have as they sit. Or if you need to make modifications to run the gas you want.
What's the bore & stroke? Also what's the rod length? Is it a standard 5.85" or something else?
Also what's the piston dish volume? You might want to cc the pistons to see where you are right now.
With the above info along w/ the timing of the closing of the S3 intake cams, you could figure out the dynamic compression ratio. With the DCR, you could find out what kind of gas you'd need to run with the parts you have as they sit. Or if you need to make modifications to run the gas you want.