F4GIB

I love my GTS and drive it. Thanks to Willhoit, I can expect to enjoy it for years AND recover all my money (except gas and tires) when I sell it.

danglerb

Did anybody do a carfax on this one to see just how many owners and when it changed title? I was assuming Willhoit is selling it for a commission not buying and then selling it.

This would be a fine car not to drive and lose money on, kind of like the piano that never gets played in some houses, but I don't know what people are smoking that think this is "like a new car", its 12 years of deferred PM on all the parts that get old instead of wear. I doubt that its really safe to even drive like a 928 instead of a model T at 5 mph.

How many spots are at the top of the pyramid for rare collectible 928's? How many museums, and serious private collectors, and how many of those spots will there be in 10 years, and which models will those spots occupy? My bet is that the spots for late model 928's will be less and other models more.

The GTS were the last and most expensive, but does that make them inherently the "collectible" model, not from past history with other makes and models, they are just rare and still expensive toys. In 10 years I suspect the true collectible models will show up as the first year and pristine examples of the evolution, and historic cars, not the last overpriced dealer pack specials. Is the last VW bug the collectible, or the classic early models?

Ed Hughes

I don't know, if the 928 becomes a real collector car with increasing values as you'd expect, the GTS should be one of the sought-after models. If you consider the 928 as a concept, the GTS is the ultimate iteration....

danglerb

Could be, I'm just saying it didn't work out that way for any other car I can think of.

I was talking to some local car guys yesterday, and they told me about salesman they know that sat down with a customer and optioned out the last of the 99 something cabriolets to be the most expensive one ever sold. I think the audience that sees that as making it collectible is a bit limited in the long term.

Chuck Z

It's had at least 3 that I know of. You would be assuming wrong on the consignment thing, he buys most if not all of the cars he sells.

I think you're wrong here too. It's unlikely this car will drop in value any time soon. As for the deferred maintenance, you don't know that for sure either. My 11k mile GTS is as highly maintained and probably safer to drive fast as any higher mileage car out there. I know the guy who last had this car spent a bunch of money on PM not unlike former owners according to the records.

H2

I suspect that the reason for the regular resurgance of this thread topic is a reflection of the volitile and uncertain market for the 928. On the one hand, you can buy a 40K mile garage queen S4 for $16K (I just did) and on the other you can buy a similar car for $28K....or pay Willhoit $70K for his truly pristine GTS. Although I think I got a screaming deal on the '88 I just bought, since then, I've seen a dozen or so S4s that may have been practically as good a deal as I got for $9K-$13K. Maybe they are, maybe they're not. The day you get most cars home from the purchase, it's probably wise to drop another couple of thousand in them just for preventative maintenance and piece of mind...or more, if there are issues. Knowing this, it makes economical sense to carefully scan the market for a deal that will give you enough headroom after the purchase to take it back to near-pristine if you can. Very few people actually make money on 928s...so why pay any more out than you really have to?

Right now, there are a lot of 928s floating on the market. Some are unprecented buys...and I'm not positive why..but I have some ideas...unpopular on this site...and some 928s are real dogs and not worth the low asking prices. Is now a good time to buy? I don't know. I bought now because I found a car I really like and, barring any unforseen gotchas, it should last me a long time. Will I still want a GT or GTS? Yes. Just because of the added development...albeit relatively minor from the S4. For what you get in a solid 928, it's still bargain priced. But why pay $28K if you can buy one for $12K and bring it up to snuff for another few thousands? Or pay $6K and bring it up to snuff for another $5K? On some pruchases that are "out there" today, there's a lot of head room.

Admittedly, those of us who have already invested a lot in our current 928s..it's discouraging to see the market prices significantly lower than what we paid. People who really like the 928 will hang on to them because they like the car...others who are more fiscally minded may panic and sell, concerned that their car really is a bottomless pit...and getting more so as they try to precdict the market trend.

Fact is....no matter what today's prices are like...the 928 probably can give you the most enjoyment for the money than most other cars. Although the 'vette owners will fight this statement to their graves...with total cost of ownership receipts and compelling performance stats in hand.

I'm sorry if some are getting pissed that the prices are dropping or rising...but the 928 market hasn't yet stabilized...and the market forces don't seem to be in our favor with the other kinds of high peformance cars available now for $15k-$30K.

I'm not trying to be negative...just realistic. With two 928s and a 968, I certainly didn't buy them to make money on them. I don't like vettes/miatas/BMWs/Boxsters/etc. as much as I do the 928 and am willing to pay more money for what I like. If I had a spare $$, I'd jump to pay premium for a really nice condition GT or GTS. In the meantime, I'm having a ball with my Porsches. Admittedly, it may be a slightly pricier car hobby than some, but you only live on this earth once. Might as well enjoy it with a car you like. Let the market develop on its own. The relatively few 928 members on Rennlist aren't going to sway the trend that much. Willhoit MAY make a difference...but just how many GTSs are there? And how many GTS 5 speeds? And how many low milers? These are premium enthusiast cars and always will command better prices than the earlier less scarce cars.

Harvey

danglerb

The person that buys this 928 will pay the highest price that anyone in the world that Willhoit with all of his expertise and advertising can find. The moment the ink drys the market value will be considerably less. With taxes and fees a 20% loss is a safe bet. Take a guess what Willhoit might offer for your investment six months later, and a 40% loss isn't hard to imagine.

Happy motoring.

H2

Are you saying this is a lot different than any other 928 purchase?

Even with my recent S4 purchase I have to add over $1,400 in delivery costs, PPI cost, $1000 in sales tax, then I get to spend a couple of thousand on Tbelt/WP/bearing changeout, put in better stereo, flush and replace all fluids, replace the tool kit and manuals that were stolen out of it the day I bought it and before I took delivery, replace a cracked fog light lens (not cheap), and probably other things I don't know about yet. The purchase price is a point of departure that's about the same on any year car. The day you buy about any car, you'll get less for it than you paid for it....especially new cars. My wife's Camry cost $24K new...now has 125K miles...and may be worth $2K. Pick your poison. GM stock may not be any better. Invest in Porsche!

It could be worse though. The guy I bought my Audi TT from paid more than $44K (with all thr options) and sold it to me 20K miles and 2 years later for $20K....that's a real loss on his part. The value is still going down but much much slower now. I'm hoping that the Porsches will hold their value better than the turbo Quattro.

H2

danglerb

Of course almost all purchases will have the taxes etc., but that is part of buying something to use, when its an investment its part of the cost.

The key difference here is that you bought your car under market value, and the Willhoit car is selling at the absolute peak of its current market value.

The comment I was responding to was, "It's unlikely this car will drop in value any time soon."

The GTS in general may hold its value, and Willhoit may sell other cars for similar or greater amounts, but whoever buys this one almost certainly will see the large losses immediately just like the buyer of a new car when leaving the dealer lot. Its not because the car is suddenly different, its because we are not car dealers with advertising, troops of salesmen, and prime locations to display the car forsale, and those items are not without substantial cost for the dealer or Willhoit to maintain and have to be considered as part of the base vehicle cost.

F4GIB

Yes... . And the sun continues to rise in the East.

What exactly are you b***hing about in these repetitive postings whining about price? No one is being coerced into purchasing a 928 or a even GTS. I doubt you've told anything new to the person who buys this car. You've certainly told nothing new to the Rennlist crowd.

928ntslow

Yea...refer to my first post on this thread, You have used a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing...oh yea...and where you DID say something...kinda, you're wrong!

You CLEARLY (again) have not paid attention to reality. A 12 yo car selling for upwards of $70K (approx 10% below MSRP base) is NOT going to lose a thing!... and I am not even going to explain why.

Tom, as for MW, super simplifying his place in all of this is inaccurate as well. As with any business, there are constant costs and investments to keep a business healthy. Thinking that MW makes big money on every car and never loses is unrealistic. He just happens to be the guy we have known the longest to be in that game. He doesn't make easy money, like most of us may think...he does lose once in a while. It all works out in the end and it seems he is successful at what he does, as he has been doing it for a while. He makes nice money from what I can see and has become the "go to" guy in the US for buying and selling fine examples of the 928....which tend to be GTS's for the most part. He has worked hard to do this.

Let me just say one more time, any level of 928 ownership is fantastic. Bashing other 928's above or below is plain ridiculous practice from a personal standpoint to the community as a whole.

danglerb

I don't think this thread was expected to be educational, its opinion and light banter.

I have no opinion on the absolute price, certainly no complaint, and little concern that a 10k mile 95 GTS might in any way effect me.

My post was about the differential in price between a private party and dealer like Willhoit, and the associated costs such a dealer must support. When a private party buys a car from a dealer, loss in value is inherent due to the cost of selling the car.

Some people are holding up Willhoits selling prices as indicators of what our or their cars are worth, and I disagree, its what Willhoit pays for the cars he sells that much closer tracks their market value.

danglerb

No please explain to me how a private party that must pay Willhoits price plus taxes and registration, and then attempts to sell the car isn't going to lose money. The instant its in the hands of a private party its value is much more like what Willhoit paid for it, than what he sells it for, thats reality whether its paid attention to or not.

Didn't the last 1995's sell for close to double MSRP?

Charley B

So if MW's faher dies and leaves him a 928 which he sells for 30k the market value is zero? Right. Like most every thing else, value is what a seller will take and a buyer will give.

danglerb

The origin of the car has nothing to do with it.

MW can sell a car for more than you or I can. Pretending otherwise is pretending.