Super charger had to come off...
01-11-2007, 07:22 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by PorKen
Might have to install the crank seals backwards? I think it was the DEVEK people that said the 928 seals aren't good for much vacuum.
01-11-2007, 07:29 PM
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That is just about what I have been thinking about doing on my blown Vette.
Yea that is the pump I was talking about, the tech name is"Secondary air injection reaction pump"
I can see where it might smoke a bit if you got to much vacum on it, might make the cats a bit hot to if they are upstream of it.
Have you thought of some kind of regulator for it?
Most of the AIR pumps are positive displacement pumps.
I think they are any way.
Yea that is the pump I was talking about, the tech name is"Secondary air injection reaction pump"
I can see where it might smoke a bit if you got to much vacum on it, might make the cats a bit hot to if they are upstream of it.
Have you thought of some kind of regulator for it?
Most of the AIR pumps are positive displacement pumps.
I think they are any way.
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
I am talking about the emission system air pump located directly above the A/C compressor. On a factory S4, the inlet is routed to the filter on the top of the fan shroud. I customized the inlet hose to pull through another K&N filter with a venturi inline between the filter and the air pump. It could also be serviced by an exhaust venturi, I believe PorKen has done some work in this area. Getting the amount of vaccum correct was the hardest part as to maximize vaccum while still allowing oil to drain back into the dipstick tube. I did have a bit too much vaccum a couple of times before I got it right and that just pumps oil directly into the exhaust. Great for killing mosquitos but not very attractive.
01-11-2007, 08:24 PM
#63
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
I did have a bit too much vaccum a couple of times before I got it right and that just pumps oil directly into the exhaust. Great for killing mosquitos but not very attractive.
01-11-2007, 09:43 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by Ketchmi
I even had the chance to view it on a dyno this week, barely any vapor coming out of the cam cover vents during a 545rwhp dyno run (12.5psi).
A lot of solutions that have been dyno tested don't behave the same out on the road under sustained load. You need to test that baby out in an open road race in the 168 tech limit classes! I had NO problem at all in the 150 tech limit classes, but once I began cruising the long straights at 165+, I burped a lot of oil.
01-12-2007, 03:29 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by Louie928
Yes, If you must return the oil below the level in the sump, use an electric scavange pump. You are not dealing wth a large instantaneous volume.
01-12-2007, 12:42 PM
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This one - very quiet, doesn't consume much power, rated 100% duty-cycle up to 300F oil temps.
01-12-2007, 12:55 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by Flott Leben
That is one nice pump. Any easy way to have it switch on and off when oil in the catch can reaches certain levels instead of it running 100% of the time?
01-12-2007, 01:05 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by 94twin
I have had good luck with exactly this. I have used several electric scavenge pumps - for my twin turbo 911 and as part of a Boxster twin turbo kit. I have also used it for returning excessive blowby from a catch-can to the bottom of the sump drain (no problem, since it's positive displacement pump). This one - very quiet, doesn't consume much power, rated 100% duty-cycle up to 300F oil temps.
01-12-2007, 01:55 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by Flott Leben
I read and understood your post. Having the oil return after engine shutdown does us little good. If you run long enough at high throttle (Bill's case) you will fill, and maybe overflow to waste, the catch can. If you need to wait for shutdown to return the oil to crankcase you run the risk of running low on oil on extended runs - like Open Road Races - where you need the largest possible oil volume and pressure.
I wasn't thinking about open road racing. Thats a pretty small # of people I would assume. I have seen many posts from people here on the boards reffering to emptying their catch cans every so often. That was what I was reffering to. I was under the impression that the amount of oil was much smaller and could be contained easily in the catch can until engine shutdown.
01-12-2007, 04:40 PM
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Sorry to OT again, but I realized I may have it backasswards. 
The water should be hot! This will keep the gas speed higher through the packing, and keep the oil cleaner. IE. with the Brillo nice and warm, they won't clog up with goo. Plumbing would be trivial too, just replace the restrictor nipple off of the coolant bridge with a straight through.
The water should be hot! This will keep the gas speed higher through the packing, and keep the oil cleaner. IE. with the Brillo nice and warm, they won't clog up with goo. Plumbing would be trivial too, just replace the restrictor nipple off of the coolant bridge with a straight through.
01-16-2007, 03:16 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by Louie928
Hi Andy,
Yes, but the crank is directly under that large opening so you need a functional unit that fits down into the hole and blocks oil thrown by the crank while catching and allowing the caught oil to drainback. At the same time not impeding the blowby gasses.
I made a "box" that fit the shape of the void. The bottom of the box was near the bottom of the hole. That put it not far from the crank. The sides of the box were made from unidirectional steel mesh like is used for oilwindage tray in the bottom of an oil sump. I bought mine from Canton Racing Products, http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...age_trays.html. The same stuff is probably available elsewhere. The bottom of the box has strips of steel about 1/2" or 3/4" wide and 1/8" thick angled like louvers to deflect oil thrown in the direction of crank rotation.
I have a horizontal partition also made from the windage tray mesh about halfway up where one side's angle changes to more vertical. Both chambers are filled with copper Brillo pad material. The top isn't a flat plate, but is a raised chamber to get as much volume inside as I could. I used two 3/4" dia tubes in one corner for the outlets. Not that going out the corner was necessarily better, but it allowed me to use the vertical distance for a volume increasing box rather than 90 deg angle fitting. Also two 3/4" outlets was easier for me to locate hose rather than a single larger tube/hose. The area of two 3/4" is about 13% more than a single 1" I may have a baffle in front of the outlets, but I can't remember right now. The inside of the outlets should project into the chamber a half inch or so so that any oil clinging to the walls of the chamber can't easily find it's way into the outlets. The whole thing was brazed together. The outlet tubes go to another oil separator rectangular box with a maze like chamber/baffle arrangement inside with an outlet for gasses on the top and another outlet for oil on the bottom. It's also filled with copper Brillo pad. The drainback line feeds into the side of the oil sump above the oil level. Not too difficult when the engine is out and sump off. I'll try to post some pics of the box under the oil filler plate, but Tony's is similar to mine so maybe his pics will suffice to illustrate what I'm trying to describe.
I'm not saying that this is the only way to attack the problem, but you do need to use every bit of space/volume available to slow down the velocity of the escaping blowby and try to separate the entrained oil and provide a way for it to get back to the engine above the level of oil in the sump. Some of that task can be accomplished inside the engine before the blowby escapes. The rest has to be done outside.
Yes, but the crank is directly under that large opening so you need a functional unit that fits down into the hole and blocks oil thrown by the crank while catching and allowing the caught oil to drainback. At the same time not impeding the blowby gasses.
I made a "box" that fit the shape of the void. The bottom of the box was near the bottom of the hole. That put it not far from the crank. The sides of the box were made from unidirectional steel mesh like is used for oilwindage tray in the bottom of an oil sump. I bought mine from Canton Racing Products, http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...age_trays.html. The same stuff is probably available elsewhere. The bottom of the box has strips of steel about 1/2" or 3/4" wide and 1/8" thick angled like louvers to deflect oil thrown in the direction of crank rotation.
I have a horizontal partition also made from the windage tray mesh about halfway up where one side's angle changes to more vertical. Both chambers are filled with copper Brillo pad material. The top isn't a flat plate, but is a raised chamber to get as much volume inside as I could. I used two 3/4" dia tubes in one corner for the outlets. Not that going out the corner was necessarily better, but it allowed me to use the vertical distance for a volume increasing box rather than 90 deg angle fitting. Also two 3/4" outlets was easier for me to locate hose rather than a single larger tube/hose. The area of two 3/4" is about 13% more than a single 1" I may have a baffle in front of the outlets, but I can't remember right now. The inside of the outlets should project into the chamber a half inch or so so that any oil clinging to the walls of the chamber can't easily find it's way into the outlets. The whole thing was brazed together. The outlet tubes go to another oil separator rectangular box with a maze like chamber/baffle arrangement inside with an outlet for gasses on the top and another outlet for oil on the bottom. It's also filled with copper Brillo pad. The drainback line feeds into the side of the oil sump above the oil level. Not too difficult when the engine is out and sump off. I'll try to post some pics of the box under the oil filler plate, but Tony's is similar to mine so maybe his pics will suffice to illustrate what I'm trying to describe.
I'm not saying that this is the only way to attack the problem, but you do need to use every bit of space/volume available to slow down the velocity of the escaping blowby and try to separate the entrained oil and provide a way for it to get back to the engine above the level of oil in the sump. Some of that task can be accomplished inside the engine before the blowby escapes. The rest has to be done outside.
Do you have pics of your setup? Rob is following your advice and modding my car. I do have a picture of Tony's setup, thanks Tony.
01-16-2007, 08:10 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by Rick Carter
Louie,
Do you have pics of your setup? Rob is following your advice and modding my car. I do have a picture of Tony's setup, thanks Tony.
Do you have pics of your setup? Rob is following your advice and modding my car. I do have a picture of Tony's setup, thanks Tony.
I have a few, but they aren't very good ones. I can't find any of the sump breather all put together and installed in the engine. I did have it at one of the 928 gatherings, possibly Wichita, and several people took pictures there. Probably better pics than I have are floating around somewhere. The size and shape of the cap on top is dictated mostly by clearance and interference with other things than anything else. The front has to be sloped toward the rear for clearance with the coolant bridge. I could have made it a little taller too. I have my outlets pointing toward the left rear of the engine V because that's where I had room for the hoses to the main oil separator which is located at the rear. Others will be different.
https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...d=164806&stc=1
SumpBreatherSideAndTopSections.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=164805&stc=1
SumpBreatherSections.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=164804&stc=1
SumpBreatherHole.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=164802&stc=1
SumpBreatherBottom2.jpghttps://rennlist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=164803&stc=1
SumpBreatherBottomInPlace.jpg
Last edited by Louie928; 03-18-2008 at 01:11 PM.
01-16-2007, 08:23 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by Louie928
Hi Andy,
Yes, but the crank is directly under that large opening so you need a functional unit that fits down into the hole and blocks oil thrown by the crank while catching and allowing the caught oil to drainback. At the same time not impeding the blowby gasses.
I made a "box" that fit the shape of the void. The bottom of the box was near the bottom of the hole. That put it not far from the crank. The sides of the box were made from unidirectional steel mesh like is used for oilwindage tray in the bottom of an oil sump. I bought mine from Canton Racing Products, http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...age_trays.html. The same stuff is probably available elsewhere. The bottom of the box has strips of steel about 1/2" or 3/4" wide and 1/8" thick angled like louvers to deflect oil thrown in the direction of crank rotation.
I have a horizontal partition also made from the windage tray mesh about halfway up where one side's angle changes to more vertical. Both chambers are filled with copper Brillo pad material. The top isn't a flat plate, but is a raised chamber to get as much volume inside as I could. I used two 3/4" dia tubes in one corner for the outlets. Not that going out the corner was necessarily better, but it allowed me to use the vertical distance for a volume increasing box rather than 90 deg angle fitting. Also two 3/4" outlets was easier for me to locate hose rather than a single larger tube/hose. The area of two 3/4" is about 13% more than a single 1" I may have a baffle in front of the outlets, but I can't remember right now. The inside of the outlets should project into the chamber a half inch or so so that any oil clinging to the walls of the chamber can't easily find it's way into the outlets. The whole thing was brazed together. The outlet tubes go to another oil separator rectangular box with a maze like chamber/baffle arrangement inside with an outlet for gasses on the top and another outlet for oil on the bottom. It's also filled with copper Brillo pad. The drainback line feeds into the side of the oil sump above the oil level. Not too difficult when the engine is out and sump off. I'll try to post some pics of the box under the oil filler plate, but Tony's is similar to mine so maybe his pics will suffice to illustrate what I'm trying to describe.
I'm not saying that this is the only way to attack the problem, but you do need to use every bit of space/volume available to slow down the velocity of the escaping blowby and try to separate the entrained oil and provide a way for it to get back to the engine above the level of oil in the sump. Some of that task can be accomplished inside the engine before the blowby escapes. The rest has to be done outside.
Yes, but the crank is directly under that large opening so you need a functional unit that fits down into the hole and blocks oil thrown by the crank while catching and allowing the caught oil to drainback. At the same time not impeding the blowby gasses.
I made a "box" that fit the shape of the void. The bottom of the box was near the bottom of the hole. That put it not far from the crank. The sides of the box were made from unidirectional steel mesh like is used for oilwindage tray in the bottom of an oil sump. I bought mine from Canton Racing Products, http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...age_trays.html. The same stuff is probably available elsewhere. The bottom of the box has strips of steel about 1/2" or 3/4" wide and 1/8" thick angled like louvers to deflect oil thrown in the direction of crank rotation.
I have a horizontal partition also made from the windage tray mesh about halfway up where one side's angle changes to more vertical. Both chambers are filled with copper Brillo pad material. The top isn't a flat plate, but is a raised chamber to get as much volume inside as I could. I used two 3/4" dia tubes in one corner for the outlets. Not that going out the corner was necessarily better, but it allowed me to use the vertical distance for a volume increasing box rather than 90 deg angle fitting. Also two 3/4" outlets was easier for me to locate hose rather than a single larger tube/hose. The area of two 3/4" is about 13% more than a single 1" I may have a baffle in front of the outlets, but I can't remember right now. The inside of the outlets should project into the chamber a half inch or so so that any oil clinging to the walls of the chamber can't easily find it's way into the outlets. The whole thing was brazed together. The outlet tubes go to another oil separator rectangular box with a maze like chamber/baffle arrangement inside with an outlet for gasses on the top and another outlet for oil on the bottom. It's also filled with copper Brillo pad. The drainback line feeds into the side of the oil sump above the oil level. Not too difficult when the engine is out and sump off. I'll try to post some pics of the box under the oil filler plate, but Tony's is similar to mine so maybe his pics will suffice to illustrate what I'm trying to describe.
I'm not saying that this is the only way to attack the problem, but you do need to use every bit of space/volume available to slow down the velocity of the escaping blowby and try to separate the entrained oil and provide a way for it to get back to the engine above the level of oil in the sump. Some of that task can be accomplished inside the engine before the blowby escapes. The rest has to be done outside.
Worth a 1000 words Louie.....
FYI..Louies designed here(below..blue) was the inspiration for my own set up. When i saw it i thought ...HMMMMmm
I first saw it at the IOC in 02? i think?
I made mine out of aluminum and added internal baffles as well as the copper scrubbers at the top. All openings are 1" sfc area min.
01-16-2007, 09:14 PM
#75
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Nice, Louie! I like the angled drip plates. That is cool. With the one-way mesh, that takes the drip oil over to the closed off area out of the high-speed airflow, at least in theory, and makes it more likely to get back down into the crankcase. I am going to do something similar but with a tented baffle or spash plate with space on one side that the air will go around but the majority of the thrown oil should hit, with the angled drip plates like you have attached to it. Maybe it is better to have all the air go through the mesh and pot scrubber, as you have, but I think the pot scrubber may actually trap the oil and get occluded and increase the amount ejected. I don't have the metal skills to make the nice box like you or Tony did.
Last edited by Bill Ball; 01-16-2007 at 09:31 PM.