Crank Scraper/Windage Tray at Road America
05-29-2006, 06:32 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
Tom,
Nice to see you posting and with new products being developed, I trust Marcia is doing better. For those that don't know, Tom makes (made?) a single exhaust using merge collectors with the same benefit as the popular X-pipe design.
Nice to see you posting and with new products being developed, I trust Marcia is doing better. For those that don't know, Tom makes (made?) a single exhaust using merge collectors with the same benefit as the popular X-pipe design.
05-30-2006, 11:00 AM
#62
Nordschleife Master
Tom,
Looks great but will it clear the clutch slave cylinder?
Had plenty of time to contemplate this up-close over the weekend. If you, like me, enjoy examining a high-performance sports car from underneath, then you'll know what a good time is. Did the following job from underneath instead of another engine pull. Possibly faster but not by much.
I got the combo sump baffle and windage shield from I-J installed along with the modified and enhanced scraper drain. Nice pieces but (apparently) the drain design didn't anticipate the height of the windage shield. Nothing a hacksaw and tin snips couldn't fix.
The new drains are a huge improvement in ramping the oil to the sump and the new windage screen along the sides will help as well.
The sump cover extends about 2 inches out from all sides. This will keep a lot of oil in the sump that would otherwise have run into the shallow end. The screen cover is a nice piece using the expanded metal windage screen.
I'll post pics later and a performance report next week.
Looks great but will it clear the clutch slave cylinder?
Had plenty of time to contemplate this up-close over the weekend. If you, like me, enjoy examining a high-performance sports car from underneath, then you'll know what a good time is. Did the following job from underneath instead of another engine pull. Possibly faster but not by much.
I got the combo sump baffle and windage shield from I-J installed along with the modified and enhanced scraper drain. Nice pieces but (apparently) the drain design didn't anticipate the height of the windage shield. Nothing a hacksaw and tin snips couldn't fix.
The new drains are a huge improvement in ramping the oil to the sump and the new windage screen along the sides will help as well.
The sump cover extends about 2 inches out from all sides. This will keep a lot of oil in the sump that would otherwise have run into the shallow end. The screen cover is a nice piece using the expanded metal windage screen.
I'll post pics later and a performance report next week.
Last edited by GlenL; 05-30-2006 at 11:25 AM.
05-30-2006, 11:34 AM
#63
Kevin - will these changes (that glen has recieved) be available to uninstalled but already purchased systems?
05-30-2006, 05:15 PM
#64
Developer
Thread Starter
I was hoping the oil seperator would work better.
I'm going a little different direction... after the blowby problems at RA and at the Milwaukee Mile on my new engine.... I have chewed on it a lot.... and even though the compression checks on my motor are 150 psi each across the board.... I find the cylinder leakdown test on this same engine to be at 20%. That is fairly normal with regular piston rings.
So.... I am proceeding with this 3-pronged approach.
1) I pulled the motor yesterday and I am changing to Total Seal Piston Rings to reduce the blowby at the root cause.
2) While I am at it I am going to stack one of my thin oil pan gaskets on top of a factory oil pan gasket - basically one-and-a-half gaskets - to distance the oil pan down as far as I can without big starter placement mods. I will change the slave cylinder line to braided -3AN flecible brake line to make room.
3) And I am going to fashion a "Johnson Snorkel" (that sounds dirty...) into my oil separator downpipe. I think I'll make mine by using a contiguous soft copper line and bend it around as needed. No joints.
....that's my plan.
05-30-2006, 09:20 PM
#66
That also allows him to lower h is engine, I think, 2 inches.
05-30-2006, 09:21 PM
#67
Developer
Thread Starter
Keep in mind that, on superchasrged cars with air-to-water intercoolers (My kit's and Tim's) we use that ww reservoir for the intercooler coolant/ww wiper fluid.
05-30-2006, 11:44 PM
#69
Developer
Thread Starter
Hey John Venninger! Glad you are on this thread. As our resident oil expert... let me share with you this evening's conversation with Keith at Total Seal Piston Rings.... check it on your bull****-o-meter and tell me what you think...
I called Total Seal ( www.totalseal.com ) to order gapless piston rings for my race motor... wanted to reduce the blowby as in my 1,2,3 plan above. Keith seemed very knowledgable, and I'm not frequently duped by "experts" who do not know their stuff (although it still can happen to the best of us
) Anyway, I guess I'm saying I was impressed by his level of knowledge.
We were talking about my sudden crankcase pressurization problem, filling the catch tank on race day, but not at all during the 500 mile break-in.
Keith suggested that I switched from mineral oil to synthetic too soon... and THAT was the cause of my sudden cranckcase pressurization problem. I ran common 10w30 API SF mineral oil for 500 miles, you might remember, before I put in the AMSOIL and went racing.
He said he's seen this before many times.... he said the the current oils are so good compared to earlier days... that piston ring seating is taking longer. He shared Chevrolet problems with the LS1 engine... sometimes going 7000 miles before the rings are bedded. He had a LOT of examples to make his point.
He mentioned that there are enough cases of the super-synthetics causing blowby on what were tight engines before, that a lot of turbocharged and supercharged racers that he knew would not/did not use synthetics for that reason...
Keith for Total Seals' recommended break-in procedure:
> non-detergent mineral oil for first 500 miles, then oil and filter change.
> Mineral oil for no less than the next 3000 miles, and some say as many as 7000 miles....
> THEN change to synthetic
The new engine break-in that I used was:
> regular 10w 30 for 20 minutes at not less than 2400 RPM. Oil and filter change. (I used Quaker State, but that's not important)
> 500 more miles on 10w30 API SF. Oil and Filter change.
> switch tio Amsoil and went racing.
In support of what he said - I have my pistons out and the Total Seal rings will be here Friday. And at 580 miles on this motor, I still have cross-honing visible on the cylinder walls - so he is right, my rings were not yet fully bedded in.
Its not that Quaker State is so good - no no no. Keith was saying all modern oils (API service grade SF, SH, etc) are sooo much better than when we used to bed rings in with API SC oils.
One more thing: he said that Zinc (an oil additive for bearing lubrication) has been removed from most automotive oils, but that commercial-grade truck oils still use it. He recommended Shell Rotella Oil (I just saw a case of Rotella 15W 40 at the store) as he has a bunch of racer/customers that use it and they swear buy it. Still has Zinc and bearings last longer. (interesting point).
BTW: I do not sell Total Seal Rings nor am I trying to sell them. Just relaying the info for what it's worth. And Total Seal does not sell motor oil or anything else but piston rings for that matter, so Keith had no profit in the knowledge he
shared.
So John - your thoughts?
I called Total Seal ( www.totalseal.com ) to order gapless piston rings for my race motor... wanted to reduce the blowby as in my 1,2,3 plan above. Keith seemed very knowledgable, and I'm not frequently duped by "experts" who do not know their stuff (although it still can happen to the best of us
) Anyway, I guess I'm saying I was impressed by his level of knowledge. We were talking about my sudden crankcase pressurization problem, filling the catch tank on race day, but not at all during the 500 mile break-in.
Keith suggested that I switched from mineral oil to synthetic too soon... and THAT was the cause of my sudden cranckcase pressurization problem. I ran common 10w30 API SF mineral oil for 500 miles, you might remember, before I put in the AMSOIL and went racing.
He said he's seen this before many times.... he said the the current oils are so good compared to earlier days... that piston ring seating is taking longer. He shared Chevrolet problems with the LS1 engine... sometimes going 7000 miles before the rings are bedded. He had a LOT of examples to make his point.
He mentioned that there are enough cases of the super-synthetics causing blowby on what were tight engines before, that a lot of turbocharged and supercharged racers that he knew would not/did not use synthetics for that reason...
Keith for Total Seals' recommended break-in procedure:
> non-detergent mineral oil for first 500 miles, then oil and filter change.
> Mineral oil for no less than the next 3000 miles, and some say as many as 7000 miles....
> THEN change to synthetic
The new engine break-in that I used was:
> regular 10w 30 for 20 minutes at not less than 2400 RPM. Oil and filter change. (I used Quaker State, but that's not important)
> 500 more miles on 10w30 API SF. Oil and Filter change.
> switch tio Amsoil and went racing.
In support of what he said - I have my pistons out and the Total Seal rings will be here Friday. And at 580 miles on this motor, I still have cross-honing visible on the cylinder walls - so he is right, my rings were not yet fully bedded in.
Its not that Quaker State is so good - no no no. Keith was saying all modern oils (API service grade SF, SH, etc) are sooo much better than when we used to bed rings in with API SC oils.
One more thing: he said that Zinc (an oil additive for bearing lubrication) has been removed from most automotive oils, but that commercial-grade truck oils still use it. He recommended Shell Rotella Oil (I just saw a case of Rotella 15W 40 at the store) as he has a bunch of racer/customers that use it and they swear buy it. Still has Zinc and bearings last longer. (interesting point).
BTW: I do not sell Total Seal Rings nor am I trying to sell them. Just relaying the info for what it's worth. And Total Seal does not sell motor oil or anything else but piston rings for that matter, so Keith had no profit in the knowledge he
shared.
So John - your thoughts?
05-31-2006, 01:19 AM
#70
Rennlist Member
Carl wrote:
I don't think visible cross hatching on a nikasil cylinder is a sign of not fully bedded rings is it Carl?
Interesting information all the same. The rear turbo 928 motor I'm building uses Total seal rings, but are the standard variety, not gapless. I had to hand file the ring end gaps to my desired spec. I guess we'll run dino oil beyond the first 1k miles of break in.
And at 580 miles on this motor, I still have cross-honing visible on the cylinder walls - so he is right, my rings were not yet fully bedded in.
Interesting information all the same. The rear turbo 928 motor I'm building uses Total seal rings, but are the standard variety, not gapless. I had to hand file the ring end gaps to my desired spec. I guess we'll run dino oil beyond the first 1k miles of break in.
05-31-2006, 09:40 AM
#72
Advanced
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lyle-Land, Wa. (65mi. East of Portland, Or.)
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
some more data from 3 race seasons and some Open Road Racing at speed (long)
Hi all. My stroker motor (my first one, built by Marc Thomas of Devek) served me well for 3 full seasons (near 15 race weekends per year with PCA, POC and SCCA) but it did have oil breather issues. During my first race season with that motor, I finally got a venting system going that really seemed to work. I have no hard data or videos, but after dealing with the oiling issues in my motor and seeing others blow up, etc. I am guessing that perhaps the oil breather system is a major contributor to problems during track sessions.
. My first track outing with the new motor (I blew up my GT motor(2/6 bearing failure at Thunderhill..long left sweeper) on the way to get the stroker installed) found me filling my two quart catch can in just a 20 minute session, using Amsoil 20-50. That motor was making about 440rwhp, running an external (Mocal) engine oil cooler in the right front fender and the large Accusump. After two revisions of the routing of the oil breather system, my 'oil in the catch can' quantity suddenly and dramatically decreased. It is my educated guess that my breather hoses were becoming full of liquid oil during sustained high (for a 928) rpm running, causing a 'plumbing problem' at the top of the motor. Sorry for the lack of techno-jargon, but I am more of a racer than an engineer and I am just passing on what I learned doing whatever wrenching I had to to keep on the track.
My original venting system came from the cam covers, around the rear of the motor and over to the catch can behind the drivers side fender liner. I put a drain valve on the breather system catch can , and after each session, I would drain the oil out and 're-cycle' it back into the motor. It is Marc Thomas' contention that running the stock style breather system, with the vented oil going into the intake, the EMS mistakenly reads that your mixture is rich (as that breather oil is ingested and burned at the intake). Hence, the different venting system. It makes sense that might be happening and you certainly don't want your EMS to lean out the motor during very high rpm running, which seems to be when the oil comes up to the top of the motor and causes problems.
Some thought, then some re-routing of my oil breather lines greatly improved the 'oil into the catch can' problem. After I changed the vent hoses around, I immediatly saw just (appx) 4 oz of oil per run session at my races. I began to be able to go a full race weekend without overflowing my catch can. My 'fix' was to route my venting lines up, across the top of the motor(rather than alongside the cam covers) and then down to the catch can. I'm guessing this maybe acted something like a 'loop' in the 'plumbing'. Whatever, I'll leave the 'why' for others, but pass on what I learned by racing (the pragmatic school of hard knocks). My motor, too, blew the dipstick sometimes, until I replaced the O-ring below the finger loop, and then fabricated (actually, Pat Edwards did the engineering) a little wire 'screen door style' hook to keep it in the motor.
I use a big accusump. My last motor lasted through one full summer of Open Road runs (100 miles at 150mph sustained, usually in hot conditions at high altitude) and 3 full seasons of racing without any bearing issues. I did see some engine oil temps in the 230s before I revised my oil cooler intake routing. I also saw some transmission oil temps in the 200s before fitting a coolerand external pump back there.
We tore down the motor just prior to it's demise a few seasons ago (by Piloto error) and it showed no undue wear, but it was schedualed to be 're-freshed' after that season. However, during an off track excursion, in November, the final race of my season, I bounced the nose of the car into a depression, tearing off one of the oil cooler lines. Returning to the heat of battle, I neglected to notice ZERO oil pressure, causing, of course, a total meltdown of that wonderful dependable Devek-built stroker.
So, what worked for me was to make sure the oil vent lines were not occluded during high rpm running. Perhaps some kinda siphon phenominum iwas happening with that, or some kinda hydro-lock, or 'clogged arteries'..I used four 1/2" hoses, two from each cam cover, converging atop the motor over the valley, then a single line going down over the throttle linkage through the fender wall into the area of the cruise control stuff. When those hoses ran along the tops of the cam covers--2 quarts every 20 minutes. (64 ozs) When I routed them up over the top of the cam covers, about 4 ounces per session..And, don't forget the accusump. Mark K. says they aren't needed, but hey, it can't hurt.
I have one on my new motor, which, using one of Louis Ott's intake systems (prototype) has dynoed at 575 rwhp (n/a). No real world (racing) testing yet, but the dyno numbers and a few spins around the lot indicate that I have greatly improved my race tools with this new motor. Perhaps we will see soon, if I ever get back onto the track.
Don Hanson
. My first track outing with the new motor (I blew up my GT motor(2/6 bearing failure at Thunderhill..long left sweeper) on the way to get the stroker installed) found me filling my two quart catch can in just a 20 minute session, using Amsoil 20-50. That motor was making about 440rwhp, running an external (Mocal) engine oil cooler in the right front fender and the large Accusump. After two revisions of the routing of the oil breather system, my 'oil in the catch can' quantity suddenly and dramatically decreased. It is my educated guess that my breather hoses were becoming full of liquid oil during sustained high (for a 928) rpm running, causing a 'plumbing problem' at the top of the motor. Sorry for the lack of techno-jargon, but I am more of a racer than an engineer and I am just passing on what I learned doing whatever wrenching I had to to keep on the track.
My original venting system came from the cam covers, around the rear of the motor and over to the catch can behind the drivers side fender liner. I put a drain valve on the breather system catch can , and after each session, I would drain the oil out and 're-cycle' it back into the motor. It is Marc Thomas' contention that running the stock style breather system, with the vented oil going into the intake, the EMS mistakenly reads that your mixture is rich (as that breather oil is ingested and burned at the intake). Hence, the different venting system. It makes sense that might be happening and you certainly don't want your EMS to lean out the motor during very high rpm running, which seems to be when the oil comes up to the top of the motor and causes problems.
Some thought, then some re-routing of my oil breather lines greatly improved the 'oil into the catch can' problem. After I changed the vent hoses around, I immediatly saw just (appx) 4 oz of oil per run session at my races. I began to be able to go a full race weekend without overflowing my catch can. My 'fix' was to route my venting lines up, across the top of the motor(rather than alongside the cam covers) and then down to the catch can. I'm guessing this maybe acted something like a 'loop' in the 'plumbing'. Whatever, I'll leave the 'why' for others, but pass on what I learned by racing (the pragmatic school of hard knocks). My motor, too, blew the dipstick sometimes, until I replaced the O-ring below the finger loop, and then fabricated (actually, Pat Edwards did the engineering) a little wire 'screen door style' hook to keep it in the motor.
I use a big accusump. My last motor lasted through one full summer of Open Road runs (100 miles at 150mph sustained, usually in hot conditions at high altitude) and 3 full seasons of racing without any bearing issues. I did see some engine oil temps in the 230s before I revised my oil cooler intake routing. I also saw some transmission oil temps in the 200s before fitting a coolerand external pump back there.
We tore down the motor just prior to it's demise a few seasons ago (by Piloto error) and it showed no undue wear, but it was schedualed to be 're-freshed' after that season. However, during an off track excursion, in November, the final race of my season, I bounced the nose of the car into a depression, tearing off one of the oil cooler lines. Returning to the heat of battle, I neglected to notice ZERO oil pressure, causing, of course, a total meltdown of that wonderful dependable Devek-built stroker.
So, what worked for me was to make sure the oil vent lines were not occluded during high rpm running. Perhaps some kinda siphon phenominum iwas happening with that, or some kinda hydro-lock, or 'clogged arteries'..I used four 1/2" hoses, two from each cam cover, converging atop the motor over the valley, then a single line going down over the throttle linkage through the fender wall into the area of the cruise control stuff. When those hoses ran along the tops of the cam covers--2 quarts every 20 minutes. (64 ozs) When I routed them up over the top of the cam covers, about 4 ounces per session..And, don't forget the accusump. Mark K. says they aren't needed, but hey, it can't hurt.
I have one on my new motor, which, using one of Louis Ott's intake systems (prototype) has dynoed at 575 rwhp (n/a). No real world (racing) testing yet, but the dyno numbers and a few spins around the lot indicate that I have greatly improved my race tools with this new motor. Perhaps we will see soon, if I ever get back onto the track.
Don Hanson
05-31-2006, 03:02 PM
#73
Developer
Thread Starter
Downpipe valves
Carl, do you think it would make sense to come up with a float/check valve, something that would allow free flow normally but would float upward on the oil and plug off the tube?
I do not like the close-valve concept that others have sold. Basically a toggle valve in the downpipe. You are supposed to normally close it for racing, open it only to add oil. Does not work on 16v cars for two reasons: 1) if you close the valve you now have no return for the oil to the sump from the oil separator, and 2) the buildup of pressure in the crankcase can be significant... I blew my rear main seal into my bellhousing during a race in 2004 doing that...
05-31-2006, 03:17 PM
#74
Developer
Thread Starter
These pictures will help you understand the interferance items that are in the way of a straight downpipe.
I like the idea... I found so far that soft copper tubing (like plumber's use) can snake down and snorkel around pretty well through the tube that is already there.
I like the idea... I found so far that soft copper tubing (like plumber's use) can snake down and snorkel around pretty well through the tube that is already there.