Carl Fausett

Yes, I am.

I have installed a oil scavange pump and in-line filter to de-aerate the oil before it re-enters the motor. This is a special pump that we now sell (although I do not have it up on the website yet) that can run continuously and can run dry without harm.

I did not want to market it or announce it until I had installed it on my own car and run it around. I have been very impressed with it. Here are some photos of the installation on my motor, although it can be installed in any rotation/position you want.

This ends the "I wonder how my catch can is doing" in the back of my mind as I race. Now I do not care... I suck it out of the bottom of the catch can and return filtered oil to the engine.

The small canister on top of the pump is the filter - made from aluminum billet with viton seals and a o-ringed opening to replace the sintered broze filter element if/when you ever want to.

BTW: the oil will not flow from catch-can back into the motor on its own. Think about it.... the pressure in the motor is the same as the pressure in the catch-tank... so the oil will not move at all unlees you give it some sort of assistance.

I decided to fliter it on the way to the motor just in case the oil picked up and debries in the catch can, to de-aerate it, and to remove a little water from the oil too. Actually, after the engine is good and hot, there is little water vapor in the catch can anymore and the oil is pretty pure.

Carl Fausett

I was able to use soft copper tubing, 3/8" OD, and snake it in the downpipe and around and up. I secured it on the inside of the pan with the clamp as shown.

I surface the oil snorkel in the corner of the pan just 3/8" below the windage tray in the corner (see the yellow arrow in the picture), where it should be able to get pretty clean air.

I figure this will "burp" that downpipe for me in hard braking/corners, and stop pumping oil up into my oil separator.

Carl Fausett

I could do that. It's a steel strap - I bet it'll be OK.

BC

Sterling said "Billet". Ahhh, Billet.

Mark Anderson

[QUOTE=Sterling]Mark,
Since you have a dry sump have you seen any increased wear on wrist pins or piston skirts?
QUOTE]

To find that out I'd have to take my motor apart which has not happened in over 4 years. My modow has always been if it ain't broke don't fix it and if it's only broke just a little bit that's OK with me.

BC

[QUOTE=mark anderson]
Is there a pic available of your updated pan?

Mark Anderson

This pan caused me a bit of grief. The first track event I ran into a scavenge issue and I spun a rod bearing. It was the first outing in my newely revamped car but the eninge had a few years on it. After removing the oil pan my mechanic called me over to look at the damage. The bearing had spun and had welded itself to the crank. After carefully picking the bearing material off the crank and rod both were deemed in good shape (not easy when Greg Brown is your engine builder) . Big Kudos to Moldex cranks and Carillo rods. They will forever be my first choice.

Mark Anderson

[QUOTE=BrendanC]I don't have any handy but I will take a few the next time it is on the hoist.

Mark Anderson

I solved the problem by going back to my old pan and no I do not coat the bearings with anything. They are stock 928 rod bearings.

Mark Anderson

Here is a picture of the inside of the pan that did not work.

BC

Thanks for the info Mark.

Sterling - I had to. I had no choice.

Mark Anderson

Sorry but I do not.

Carl Fausett

What's the difference between the early oil filter and the late-model oil filter? Anybody?

GlenL

Here's a cross-post of my finding with the updated scraper drains and sump cover from the email list for:



For those of us that track or cars, be it DE or racing, the issue of keeping the
oil inside the engine and covering the pick-up is a big concern. Almost everyone
reports problems with oil going into the intake or out into catch cans. Failure
of the rod bearings is also related to these problems when the pick-up sucks air
or foamy oil and shoots that to the bearings.

I've been struggling with this for a few years and think that the pieces are falling
into place for a good solution. That'd be a solution outside of a full dry-sump
system. The system in place on my 1980 Euro S now includes a oil sump cover, a set
of crank scrapers and a secondary oil separator.

Over the past couple of years I've tried two different home made oil separators.
These were connected to the outlet at the top of the oil filler. The stock line
back into the manifold is plugged and ready for street use. These have worked well
in preventing oil from going into the intake and also allow me to quantify the ejection
problem.

This past Winter I added a set of scrapers from Ishihara-Johnson to the bottom end.
These are nice pieces. I also added a GTS baffle on top of the stock screen. The
net result of these modification was a huge increase (over 2x) in oil ejection while
running at BIR in April. The rate looked to be 2.5qts/hr and was overflowing the
catch can.

My analysis of the problem was that the scraper drains were too slightly angled.
The captured oil was actually running into the back of the pan under acceleration
and there getting hit or swept up by the rotating assembly. Based on this idea,
Kevin Johnson at I-J made up two new drains with a much higher slope. These are
also sealed at the back and have directional grating in the channels. A huge inprovement.

Part of the analysis was done by extending the BenchRacer.xls spreadsheet to compute
the results of the acceleration on the fluid. I run at BIR mostly and that track
has a 1 mile front straight. Going from 3rd into 5th at WOT was causing a lot of
smoke (before catch can) and was certainly a big part of the ejection problem at
the track. The additional analysis focused on finding how much oil the pan can hold
while the car is in forward acceleration. The acceleration causes the oil surface
to slope in the pan and makes the sump effectively smaller. The results showed that
in 2nd gear the pan was holding only 4 quarts. This increased to holding 7.5quarts
at the top end in fourth gear. The rest of the oil that should be in the sump would
be forced into the back of the oil pan and very close to, or into, the crank. All
the analysis was done using gearing and dyno data for my '80 Euro S.

Measuring an oil pan shows that the floor slopes very gently (~5 degrees). Looking
at the car's acceleration, oil is forced up into the back of the pan up through
4th gear. Only in 5th does gravity pull the oil forwards harder than the engine
pushes it back. I was going to analyze how high the oil forced from the sump was
piling up at the back of the pan but the complex shape of the pan makes that difficult.
Suffice it to say there's a real problem.

The analysis included modifying the pan using a cover that extends from the back
of the pan. This shows the strong benefits of this approach (Thx, Mike!)

The practical testing of the cover and new scrapers was done last weekend (5/3/06)
at Heartland Park near Topeka. The results were very good. The track is rather short
and technical by BIR or RA standard at 2.3 miles with 15 turns (depending on who's
counting). An interesting feature is a tight 180 degress carousel to the left. The
track is also different in that it is run counter-clockwise giving more of the left-handers
that the 928 pan design makes more risky.

I ran four 20-25 min. sessions. The first two were with instructor to help me, as
a track newby, to learn the track. (That is, pretty slow.) Before going out for
the first session the oil level was at 3/4 qt low on the dipstick. Upon returning
it was just a bit lower (~7/8 qt) with just ~1/2 cup in the catch can. This was
amazing! No oil was added and after the second session the oil caught and measured
to be gone was the same at about 1/2 cup. Before the third session I added 1/2qt
to the car. In this session, which was driven harder, the sump caught a bit less
than a pint. This was still a very good result as twice that was a previous norm
and ~5x was tossed at BIR 6 weeks previously.

The best result, from an analytical standpoint, was the fourth and final session.
Starting with the sump 3/4qt low, I drove the car very hard. At the end the oil
level was a bit less than 1qt low and accordingly less than 1 pint was in the catch.

It's hard to draw a comparison between different tracks but my opinion is that the
scrapers and sump cover have cut the oil ejection problem by btween 50% and 70%.
This is better than a 4x improvement over the first attempt with the original scraper
drains and a GTS baffle. At that time the car would puke oil down to being 1.75
qts low in twenty minutes starting at 1/2qt low.

The oil pressure behavior around the left-hand carousel was also good. (The instructor
asked, "Whatcha looin' at?") Taking the corner at 3K rpm with engine hot,
the needle looked to bobble around 4bar a bit but never dropped below 3.5bar. Not
a solid 5bar but pretty good. The oil used was Amsoil TRO2000 20w50.

To summarize: I'm very pleased with the new configuration and don't intend to make
more changes. (At least not this season There could be more oil retained by widening
the sump cover, but that'd be at the expense of drain-back rate so a good balance
may already have been found. I'll be filling the sump to 3/4qt low as the starting
point for track use.

You can find pics of the sump cover, scrapers and some more discussion at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~bigdadglen/carpics/id10.html

This rennlist thread discusses oil ejection and includes graphs from the analysis
of sump volume while under acceleration both with and without the cover:

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273110

See y'all at RA July 10-11?

Glen
'80 Euro S

BC

This update is great. I do not see the non-grated rim that I saw in a previous picture on your website - are you not using the rim any longer?

What parts should I send back to you Kevin so you can change this to the new drain design?

While the pan hanges very very low as it is, what about taking the pan and simply extending the lower portion even lower? Just box-welding an additional inch or so, and of course adding the additional tubing to the pickup?

That would keep more oil in the pan under cornering, right? And the oil level, (I know this part has been discussed) indeed would be farther way.

Of course, all that welding, you may as well make a dry sump panand system, I guess.