Is The Prices of Gas Affecting Ur Driving?
04-19-2006, 08:13 PM
#46
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Anyhow, i'd welcome the day fossile fuels are taken out of the equation of international politics, economics and the environment. Causes as much mayhem as religion.
Piet
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04-19-2006, 08:50 PM
#47
My 944S gets excellent gas mileage, but I prefer to drive the 928. Drove my old autocross FIAT today with the top down. It feels faster at 70 than the 928 does at unmentionable speeds. It is a lot like a stunt trainer biplane in that it does everything but at 3/4 speed. And 1/10 the price. HMMM.
04-19-2006, 09:06 PM
#48
Administrator - "Tyson"
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If you drive 20,000 miles per year:
10mpg $8,000
15mpg $5,334
20mpg $4,000
30mpg $2,667
40mpg $2,000
50mpg $1,600
60mpg $1,334
EDIT - This is at $4 per gallon
10mpg $8,000
15mpg $5,334
20mpg $4,000
30mpg $2,667
40mpg $2,000
50mpg $1,600
60mpg $1,334
EDIT - This is at $4 per gallon
Last edited by hacker-pschorr; 04-20-2006 at 12:18 AM.
04-19-2006, 09:52 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by Jim bailey - 928 International
That is OK Shane now tell us how much fossil fuel it takes to keep that little village going in the Bering Sea ? The price of crab and Polluck can only be going up.
04-20-2006, 12:12 AM
#50
Nordschleife Master
tv, I think your missing the point.
It costs 10-15 dollars a barral to produce many types of heavy crude. The stuff is just as happy to stay in the ground. Then it takes more processing to turn it into useable fuel. This means that refiners will not pay as much for heavy crude as they will light.
If light crude is selling for 15 dollars a barral, heavy crude must be less than that. If it costs 10 dollars a barral to lift the crude, then there is no point in being in bussness. If light sweet is at 20 dollars a barral, there might be enough of a margion to justify opperating a heavy sour crude plant. IIRC, we were looking at prices of oil under 20 a barral all through the late 80s the 90s, and most of 2000. Oil didn't hit 30 a barral untill 2003. Are you going to build a refinery to hanndle heavy crude, when you can buy the light stuff for virtualy the same price? OPEC was exporting mainly light stuff, as they got a better profit for the light crude, and the could keep price support by shutting the heavy production in.
Many of the US's refineries were set up back 30-50 years ago to hanndle "secure" deposts in the US, very often heavy crude. The US's feilds are some of the oldest in the world, and we depleated the light crude sooner than most everyone else. Thus we built thermal crackers, hydrotreaters, and the like, because it was the only way to make the heavy stuff into useable products.
The new refineries that were built in asia in the 80, 90s, and early 2000s we built in a time of cheap, light oil. Why build the expensive thermal crackers, hydrotreaters, and the like when you didn't need them. According to OPEC, only about 30% of the refineries in Asia can hanndle heavy crude. (How much do you want to bet the refineries that can were built before oil bust in 84-85?) OPEC also says that only 45% of the refineries in the world can hanndle the stuff.
Almost all of the current excess production is heavy crude. About 60% of all conventional oil reserves are heavy crude, but less than half the worlds refineries can hanndle it. The price gap between Arab heavy and Arab light is generaly less than 5 dollars. Right now it's about $20. This has shot refiner's profits through the roof, IF they can hanndle the heavy crude.
Now prices have turn around, into a rally in less than 3 years. It may take 3 years to get an expanshion plan through the EPA, OSHA, and the like, and if it's sigificant, maybe another year to 3 to build it. To be perfectly honest with you, I haven't heard of ANY new refinery construction in the US. It's often about the regulations. The US regulates it's industry heavily. Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Qutar, Kuqait, China, S. Korea and the like do not. If you have a spill in the US, OH LORD, here comes the EPA. If you have a spill in Saudia Arabia, opps, sorry about that. Not only that, but the old refineries are grandfathered in with old regulations much of the time. New refineries would have to meet much stricter standards, all through that is suppost to be changeing soon if not already.
I'm not convinced that additional regulation is the way to go. I have a feeling that we'ed end up with the oil bussness version of Caltrans or TXDOT.
"Windfall taxs" are a pet peave of mine. No body droped a tear when oil fell to 10 dollars a barral, and hundrads, if not thousands, of wells were shut-in in Texas. Thousands of people lost their jobs, and oil companies scaled back their projects. My father lost about half his income when I was a kid because of the oil bust. Now that the oil is back up in price, please forgive me if I don't shed a tear. Not to mention, if one tried to tax profits, then the corporations will be going overseas, of the overseas compettetors will leap frog them, as you just took the incentive of being in the oil bussness out of the game. In the oil bussness, you can make alought of money, but you can lose alought of money. If you can no longer make alought of money, why risk the loseing of the lought of money?
What alternative energy? Ethanol? Don't make me laugh, you get less energy out of ethanol than you put in current farming practices. Not only that, but it's more expensive too. Bio-desiel? Maybe, the jurry is still out as to how practical it is, more than likely genetic engineering will be needed to make better oil yeilding plants. Oil is only used as a transportation fuel i nthe US. Find me an alternative transportation fuel is that even clost to ready and maybe I'll revise my statment. As of current, there is no technologicly feaseable alternative to oil. No, any alternative energy must be able to support it's self in the face of oil, not because of goverment assistance.
The way out of this for most people is quite simple. Just wait. Many other nations are already building refineries as fast as they can. They are often useing US financeing, and technology. They will be more than happy to export finished products to the US. Not only that, but production of crude is ramping up in OPEC, and non OPEC nations. Remember there is an oil boom on. In 5 to 10 years, I'm placeing better than even odds that we'll have a nice oil glutt, and that will be the end of that. That or an "oil sparked" recession, when the Fed beging to clamp down on the money supply to hold back the inflation that their credit bubble created, which is another story entirely.
It costs 10-15 dollars a barral to produce many types of heavy crude. The stuff is just as happy to stay in the ground. Then it takes more processing to turn it into useable fuel. This means that refiners will not pay as much for heavy crude as they will light.
If light crude is selling for 15 dollars a barral, heavy crude must be less than that. If it costs 10 dollars a barral to lift the crude, then there is no point in being in bussness. If light sweet is at 20 dollars a barral, there might be enough of a margion to justify opperating a heavy sour crude plant. IIRC, we were looking at prices of oil under 20 a barral all through the late 80s the 90s, and most of 2000. Oil didn't hit 30 a barral untill 2003. Are you going to build a refinery to hanndle heavy crude, when you can buy the light stuff for virtualy the same price? OPEC was exporting mainly light stuff, as they got a better profit for the light crude, and the could keep price support by shutting the heavy production in.
Many of the US's refineries were set up back 30-50 years ago to hanndle "secure" deposts in the US, very often heavy crude. The US's feilds are some of the oldest in the world, and we depleated the light crude sooner than most everyone else. Thus we built thermal crackers, hydrotreaters, and the like, because it was the only way to make the heavy stuff into useable products.
The new refineries that were built in asia in the 80, 90s, and early 2000s we built in a time of cheap, light oil. Why build the expensive thermal crackers, hydrotreaters, and the like when you didn't need them. According to OPEC, only about 30% of the refineries in Asia can hanndle heavy crude. (How much do you want to bet the refineries that can were built before oil bust in 84-85?) OPEC also says that only 45% of the refineries in the world can hanndle the stuff.
Almost all of the current excess production is heavy crude. About 60% of all conventional oil reserves are heavy crude, but less than half the worlds refineries can hanndle it. The price gap between Arab heavy and Arab light is generaly less than 5 dollars. Right now it's about $20. This has shot refiner's profits through the roof, IF they can hanndle the heavy crude.
Now prices have turn around, into a rally in less than 3 years. It may take 3 years to get an expanshion plan through the EPA, OSHA, and the like, and if it's sigificant, maybe another year to 3 to build it. To be perfectly honest with you, I haven't heard of ANY new refinery construction in the US. It's often about the regulations. The US regulates it's industry heavily. Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Qutar, Kuqait, China, S. Korea and the like do not. If you have a spill in the US, OH LORD, here comes the EPA. If you have a spill in Saudia Arabia, opps, sorry about that. Not only that, but the old refineries are grandfathered in with old regulations much of the time. New refineries would have to meet much stricter standards, all through that is suppost to be changeing soon if not already.
I'm not convinced that additional regulation is the way to go. I have a feeling that we'ed end up with the oil bussness version of Caltrans or TXDOT.
"Windfall taxs" are a pet peave of mine. No body droped a tear when oil fell to 10 dollars a barral, and hundrads, if not thousands, of wells were shut-in in Texas. Thousands of people lost their jobs, and oil companies scaled back their projects. My father lost about half his income when I was a kid because of the oil bust. Now that the oil is back up in price, please forgive me if I don't shed a tear. Not to mention, if one tried to tax profits, then the corporations will be going overseas, of the overseas compettetors will leap frog them, as you just took the incentive of being in the oil bussness out of the game. In the oil bussness, you can make alought of money, but you can lose alought of money. If you can no longer make alought of money, why risk the loseing of the lought of money?
What alternative energy? Ethanol? Don't make me laugh, you get less energy out of ethanol than you put in current farming practices. Not only that, but it's more expensive too. Bio-desiel? Maybe, the jurry is still out as to how practical it is, more than likely genetic engineering will be needed to make better oil yeilding plants. Oil is only used as a transportation fuel i nthe US. Find me an alternative transportation fuel is that even clost to ready and maybe I'll revise my statment. As of current, there is no technologicly feaseable alternative to oil. No, any alternative energy must be able to support it's self in the face of oil, not because of goverment assistance.
The way out of this for most people is quite simple. Just wait. Many other nations are already building refineries as fast as they can. They are often useing US financeing, and technology. They will be more than happy to export finished products to the US. Not only that, but production of crude is ramping up in OPEC, and non OPEC nations. Remember there is an oil boom on. In 5 to 10 years, I'm placeing better than even odds that we'll have a nice oil glutt, and that will be the end of that. That or an "oil sparked" recession, when the Fed beging to clamp down on the money supply to hold back the inflation that their credit bubble created, which is another story entirely.
Last edited by ViribusUnits; 04-20-2006 at 12:33 AM.
04-20-2006, 12:49 AM
#51
Drifting
It's late but it seems you are repeating my point Virbus about new refineries and regulations. Last fall we were getting shiploads of refined GASOLINE from europe to help us out. What were they refining? Leadership anticipates problems and takes steps to avoid them!! They could waive all regs and fasttrack new refineries.
All Electricity in this country should be produced by coal and nuclear, BUT it is produced by a lot of oil and gas. That is stupid. BP has a program for solar products. Fuel cells, solar, wind, you name it should be R&D'ed until breakthrus happen. And yes Shale should be pursued, its being done in already in canada and in the west.
And i see you have a personal involvement with your dad. What can i say, that sucks, but we need a national policy that protects our society in general. Again drillers are one apsect and refiners are another.
All Electricity in this country should be produced by coal and nuclear, BUT it is produced by a lot of oil and gas. That is stupid. BP has a program for solar products. Fuel cells, solar, wind, you name it should be R&D'ed until breakthrus happen. And yes Shale should be pursued, its being done in already in canada and in the west.
And i see you have a personal involvement with your dad. What can i say, that sucks, but we need a national policy that protects our society in general. Again drillers are one apsect and refiners are another.
04-20-2006, 02:07 AM
#52
Nordschleife Master
I miss understood your point about national regulation. I figured you were going for something close to nationalization of oil companies, including government mandated research, windfall profit taxes, and probably price fixing.
I wouldn't be adverse to an understanding in the public mindset that government can't continually take away margins from oil companies, w/o being prepared to at least shield the affected industry from the unregulated opponents. My favored method is an import tax on countries that do not meet equivalent US emission requirements, or offer export subsidies. This places pressure on anyone that expects to export to the US to clean up their own act, as well as shielding the US industry and regaining profitability. That said, I'm not too broken up about it, as I'm generally into free trade. I'm just as happy to see Mexico build loughts of polluting refineries, and provide themselves with the beginnings of a good life, until enough Mexicans reach the good life they they start demanding environmental regulations.
That said, what kind of leadership would you like? LNG terminals are being built, refineries are bing built over seas by US companies, with US technology. The US already has a large portion of it's refineries set up for heavy oil refining. Much of this has been out of the US's control. W/o LNG terminals, natural gas will continue to be a domestic product, and thus prone to domestic shortages. The new demand for light sweet crude is world wide, including a nice healthy growth in China. A vast lack of foresight was shown in Asia as China consumes far too much energy for the wealth it generates, and too much of it is in the form of light sweet crude. Much of the oil production is in the hands of OPEC which didn't invest in new production until relatively recently. Everyone else is producing as much as they can. Russia, and many other non OPEC countries have attracted vast amounts of investment for it's oil and gas industry.
The lack of nuclear power in the US is not critical, as nuclear and coal pretty much have the same prices, and follow every similar market economics. Nuclear is a might bit cheaper if you run at very high utilization rates, coal is cheaper until you reach rather low utilization rates, when natural gas takes over.
Almost no electricity is produced using oil in the US. Oil produces about 3% of the US's electrical needs. This is mostly in remote locations, or for emergency power where bigger plants are impractical. Basically every other type of power generation is cheaper than oil, so it's only used as a last resort.
A significant percentage of electricity is being produced using natural gas. This is not crazy. Natural gas is of little use as a motor fuel. Using current technology, it's actually worse than gasoline/diesel as a motor fuel. If and when fuel cells become the accepted practice then maybe things will change, but until then I can't think of a better job for natural gas than space heating and generation of electricity. It's cleaner than coal, and easily follows peak load, unlike nuclear.
The prices on natural gas will also go down as LNG receiving terminals are completed. Nigeria, for example, vents or flares over 90% of their associated gas production. (associated gas is gas that comes up with oil.) Iran does the same. Not only that, but there are vast reserves of conventional natural gas in Central Asia. These reserves will be delivered through Russian, Iranian, and Central Asia pipelines to LNG export terminals on coast lines for export all over the world. Not to mention, straight pipelines to Europe, China, and India. There is about to be one holy heck of a natural gas boom in central Asia.
The problem with solar, and wind power generation is that it's not reliable. Solar or wind generation can only be used when it has a complete doubling of the generation capacity from other sources. Basically, for every watt of potential with generation, you need another watt of natural gas generation that can take over if the wind happens to not blow at the right speed at the right time. This is expensive. Not to mention, solar power has been prohibitively expensive, somewhere between 50 and 100 times the cost of normal methods. With power has been about 2 to 5 times, so government subsidies have been able to make it feasible economically on a limited scale. Don't expect it to replace more than a percentage point of the US's electrical needs at any point in the future.
Personally, I'm just as happy to let the market take care of it. Refineries will be built in Saudi Arabia, Mexico, etc. New fields, and old fields will be developed. Oil shale will happen when it's technically feasible, and not before. Same with solar and wind power, if ever. I have a feeling that government R&D will be a matter of too much, in the wrong direction, too soon and end up being wasted. Even as bad as things are oil price wise, the economy is still cooking at ultra hot, both in the US and around the world. Clearly somebody must think the price of oil is fair! Sure fuel is expensive, but it's not so expensive that people have stopped living in suburbia. And China and Saudia Arabia can absorb many many many new refineries before they even come close to matching our per capita GDP, and the equivalent demand for pollution regulations.
I wouldn't be adverse to an understanding in the public mindset that government can't continually take away margins from oil companies, w/o being prepared to at least shield the affected industry from the unregulated opponents. My favored method is an import tax on countries that do not meet equivalent US emission requirements, or offer export subsidies. This places pressure on anyone that expects to export to the US to clean up their own act, as well as shielding the US industry and regaining profitability. That said, I'm not too broken up about it, as I'm generally into free trade. I'm just as happy to see Mexico build loughts of polluting refineries, and provide themselves with the beginnings of a good life, until enough Mexicans reach the good life they they start demanding environmental regulations.
That said, what kind of leadership would you like? LNG terminals are being built, refineries are bing built over seas by US companies, with US technology. The US already has a large portion of it's refineries set up for heavy oil refining. Much of this has been out of the US's control. W/o LNG terminals, natural gas will continue to be a domestic product, and thus prone to domestic shortages. The new demand for light sweet crude is world wide, including a nice healthy growth in China. A vast lack of foresight was shown in Asia as China consumes far too much energy for the wealth it generates, and too much of it is in the form of light sweet crude. Much of the oil production is in the hands of OPEC which didn't invest in new production until relatively recently. Everyone else is producing as much as they can. Russia, and many other non OPEC countries have attracted vast amounts of investment for it's oil and gas industry.
The lack of nuclear power in the US is not critical, as nuclear and coal pretty much have the same prices, and follow every similar market economics. Nuclear is a might bit cheaper if you run at very high utilization rates, coal is cheaper until you reach rather low utilization rates, when natural gas takes over.
Almost no electricity is produced using oil in the US. Oil produces about 3% of the US's electrical needs. This is mostly in remote locations, or for emergency power where bigger plants are impractical. Basically every other type of power generation is cheaper than oil, so it's only used as a last resort.
A significant percentage of electricity is being produced using natural gas. This is not crazy. Natural gas is of little use as a motor fuel. Using current technology, it's actually worse than gasoline/diesel as a motor fuel. If and when fuel cells become the accepted practice then maybe things will change, but until then I can't think of a better job for natural gas than space heating and generation of electricity. It's cleaner than coal, and easily follows peak load, unlike nuclear.
The prices on natural gas will also go down as LNG receiving terminals are completed. Nigeria, for example, vents or flares over 90% of their associated gas production. (associated gas is gas that comes up with oil.) Iran does the same. Not only that, but there are vast reserves of conventional natural gas in Central Asia. These reserves will be delivered through Russian, Iranian, and Central Asia pipelines to LNG export terminals on coast lines for export all over the world. Not to mention, straight pipelines to Europe, China, and India. There is about to be one holy heck of a natural gas boom in central Asia.
The problem with solar, and wind power generation is that it's not reliable. Solar or wind generation can only be used when it has a complete doubling of the generation capacity from other sources. Basically, for every watt of potential with generation, you need another watt of natural gas generation that can take over if the wind happens to not blow at the right speed at the right time. This is expensive. Not to mention, solar power has been prohibitively expensive, somewhere between 50 and 100 times the cost of normal methods. With power has been about 2 to 5 times, so government subsidies have been able to make it feasible economically on a limited scale. Don't expect it to replace more than a percentage point of the US's electrical needs at any point in the future.
Personally, I'm just as happy to let the market take care of it. Refineries will be built in Saudi Arabia, Mexico, etc. New fields, and old fields will be developed. Oil shale will happen when it's technically feasible, and not before. Same with solar and wind power, if ever. I have a feeling that government R&D will be a matter of too much, in the wrong direction, too soon and end up being wasted. Even as bad as things are oil price wise, the economy is still cooking at ultra hot, both in the US and around the world. Clearly somebody must think the price of oil is fair! Sure fuel is expensive, but it's not so expensive that people have stopped living in suburbia. And China and Saudia Arabia can absorb many many many new refineries before they even come close to matching our per capita GDP, and the equivalent demand for pollution regulations.
04-20-2006, 09:02 AM
#54
Drifting
Virbus, You ought to try living in the northeast for a while. People here sometimes have to decide between heat and food. Natural gas was double at the beginning of the heating season from an already high price from the year before. And shortages were predicted WHY?? Because the free market, greed and stupidity, has most of this countrys' production and distribution coming from Texas and Louisiana, then piped up here and other parts of the east coast by a couple of main pipelines.
I think the ONE coming here is called the colonial line. Well any way a proposal to build an LNG port here i think was scrapped, not in my backyard or something. That is retarded! Also Gasoline is piped and because of the switch over from mbte to something else it can't go thru the same pipes causing more shotages and higher prices.
New production and distribution has to be moved away from TX and LA so its not so vulnerable and centralised. Energy production and distribution has to be run like the defense industry. Lockheed martin, general dynamics, northrop etc. They are private companies but almost regulated since their only customer is the US govt. If some JR's down in TX don't make a killing too bad. The free economy and capitalism doesn't always work and certainly hasn't worked in the last 10 years.
Your neighbor was right, Ross Perot, about everything with nafta etc. FREE TRADE is a joke and a scam. There is no such thing when you deal with countries like mexico and china. If you think capitalism is so great go back to the robber barons at the turn of the last century and see what life was like for most people. Sweat shops in NYC where children worked all day long. We do not live in capitalism at all, if we did you would still have indentured servants and slaves. Stop kidding yourself.
I think the ONE coming here is called the colonial line. Well any way a proposal to build an LNG port here i think was scrapped, not in my backyard or something. That is retarded! Also Gasoline is piped and because of the switch over from mbte to something else it can't go thru the same pipes causing more shotages and higher prices.
New production and distribution has to be moved away from TX and LA so its not so vulnerable and centralised. Energy production and distribution has to be run like the defense industry. Lockheed martin, general dynamics, northrop etc. They are private companies but almost regulated since their only customer is the US govt. If some JR's down in TX don't make a killing too bad. The free economy and capitalism doesn't always work and certainly hasn't worked in the last 10 years.
Your neighbor was right, Ross Perot, about everything with nafta etc. FREE TRADE is a joke and a scam. There is no such thing when you deal with countries like mexico and china. If you think capitalism is so great go back to the robber barons at the turn of the last century and see what life was like for most people. Sweat shops in NYC where children worked all day long. We do not live in capitalism at all, if we did you would still have indentured servants and slaves. Stop kidding yourself.
04-20-2006, 10:14 AM
#55
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"Natural gas is of little use as a motor fuel. Using current technology, it's actually worse than gasoline/diesel as a motor fuel"
That sounds like it came way out of left field, NG burns cleaner than gasoline. Nat Gas vehicles require a conversion kit, plus not many places to fill up, therefore cost prohibitive when we have cheaper sources.
That sounds like it came way out of left field, NG burns cleaner than gasoline. Nat Gas vehicles require a conversion kit, plus not many places to fill up, therefore cost prohibitive when we have cheaper sources.
04-20-2006, 12:18 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by rawwarden
I was just wondering if the raising prices in gas are affecting your driving. I heard on the radio today it may get to 4$ for regulaur....
It's amazing that the oil companies profits have doubled in the last quarter, and yet the price of gas continues to rise. Where is our government when you need them. Talk about Enron and Worldcom, what about American oil companies
So much for patriotism 
04-20-2006, 01:23 PM
#57
Nordschleife Master
I don't understand your point of view. Not at all.
Domestic Oil and gas production and distribution are where the oil and gas is, or where they are allowed to build the terminals. The reason that we have a gas shortage in the US is because the gas in under the Gulf of Mexico. When storms damage the platforms that produce the gas, there is no gas to sell to the market. And don't even think that companies are being slow to bring production back online. It's a complicated business, but the first person that brings production back online makes a killing. Everyone wants to be 1st or 2nd. If your last, you just found yourself out of the business.
True a bit of government leadership could have been shown in helping get the permits for the LNG import facilities through. Rejecting the permits helps no one. However, over the long run, I dought it's going to matter much eighter way. The facilities will be built, if the North East won't allow it, then LA, or TX will. Mostly this is up to the people in the North East. Their government really does what they want. If the “IMBY” folks over shout the “NIMBY” folks, then your good to go.
Profits are high because there is an oil boom. Just like profits were low in the previous 20 years because there was an oil bust. What more can you ask for, it's a high risk business? High profits in the oil industry are spurring investment in it. And that means more development in refineries, and fields, even if they're not in the US. Maybe a little governmental leadership might convince a few to be built in the US, but there is no way US governmental leadership will be able to convince the refiners in Asia or the fUSSR to rebuild their plants to accept heavy crude for an oil shortage that may never appear.
As far as the NG comment, I was trying to think of what NG can be used for other than generating electricity. Natural gas indeed burns cleanly. However, you take a hit in performance, both in hp a given engine can produce, and how much fuel can be carried. CNG doesn't hold nearly as much energy for a given volume as diesel or gasoline. The environmental benefits are rather minimal with modern emissions controls. I don't see the point of using a fuel that would require a complete new infrastructure, needs to fill up more often, and knocks down the hp/l of your engine for marginal environmental benefits. NG works great when you have a fixed instillation that you can bring a pipeline to. Not so good as a motor fuel.
Why are people not prepared for the rise in oil prices? Oil has been at historical lows all through the 1990s. Why are people so surprised that we're once again in an upswing?
I need to hurry up and hush, before someone gets really upset, and Randy moves this thread to the OT where I can't follow, yet.
Domestic Oil and gas production and distribution are where the oil and gas is, or where they are allowed to build the terminals. The reason that we have a gas shortage in the US is because the gas in under the Gulf of Mexico. When storms damage the platforms that produce the gas, there is no gas to sell to the market. And don't even think that companies are being slow to bring production back online. It's a complicated business, but the first person that brings production back online makes a killing. Everyone wants to be 1st or 2nd. If your last, you just found yourself out of the business.
True a bit of government leadership could have been shown in helping get the permits for the LNG import facilities through. Rejecting the permits helps no one. However, over the long run, I dought it's going to matter much eighter way. The facilities will be built, if the North East won't allow it, then LA, or TX will. Mostly this is up to the people in the North East. Their government really does what they want. If the “IMBY” folks over shout the “NIMBY” folks, then your good to go.
Profits are high because there is an oil boom. Just like profits were low in the previous 20 years because there was an oil bust. What more can you ask for, it's a high risk business? High profits in the oil industry are spurring investment in it. And that means more development in refineries, and fields, even if they're not in the US. Maybe a little governmental leadership might convince a few to be built in the US, but there is no way US governmental leadership will be able to convince the refiners in Asia or the fUSSR to rebuild their plants to accept heavy crude for an oil shortage that may never appear.
As far as the NG comment, I was trying to think of what NG can be used for other than generating electricity. Natural gas indeed burns cleanly. However, you take a hit in performance, both in hp a given engine can produce, and how much fuel can be carried. CNG doesn't hold nearly as much energy for a given volume as diesel or gasoline. The environmental benefits are rather minimal with modern emissions controls. I don't see the point of using a fuel that would require a complete new infrastructure, needs to fill up more often, and knocks down the hp/l of your engine for marginal environmental benefits. NG works great when you have a fixed instillation that you can bring a pipeline to. Not so good as a motor fuel.
Why are people not prepared for the rise in oil prices? Oil has been at historical lows all through the 1990s. Why are people so surprised that we're once again in an upswing?
I need to hurry up and hush, before someone gets really upset, and Randy moves this thread to the OT where I can't follow, yet.
04-20-2006, 01:27 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by morganabowen
Yes
It's amazing that the oil companies profits have doubled in the last quarter, and yet the price of gas continues to rise. Where is our government when you need them. Talk about Enron and Worldcom, what about American oil companies So much for patriotism
It's amazing that the oil companies profits have doubled in the last quarter, and yet the price of gas continues to rise. Where is our government when you need them. Talk about Enron and Worldcom, what about American oil companies
So much for patriotism I bet if that fat dude wears a turtle neck it looks like an uncircumsized ***** walking around. He is so fat it makes Jabba look like an advertisement for Trim Spa. When ever this fat bastard dies. I'm sure a solid gold piano box will be needed to bury that carcass. And people thought only Pelicans store food in there neck until this missing link came along. He's retiring because P.T. Barnum is running low on freaks for the freakshow.
The guy looks like offspring of Gungan f'king a Ferengi.
Hes got enuff money for Michael Jackson to molest another couple hundred kids inside the US. This chunk of sh*t so fat that even his toes have double chins inbetween the crusted cheeze. That guy is so fat his dick got swallowed up by the fat and created a 2nd ******* in the front. When a new hurricane is announced on TV all these fat slimly so-called human beings smile with joy and buy their kids another Mercedes.
There was talk about that natural gas pipe line in Afghanistan before 9/11 to make Exxon money. That fat POS is getting a fortune at the price of US blood and treasure. When I drive by an Exxon/Mobile gas station and see people pumping gas. I'm just amazed they put a single nickle in this these peoples pocket.
04-20-2006, 01:51 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
BTW, I like Exxon. Care more about clean fuel than oil spills that could have happened anywhere/anyone.
From what I know, money is not easily made, all of the time, in the oil/gasoline business. It's one of the few industries where commodities are the input and output (i.e., crude and gasoline respectively). Sometime back, companies realized selling food, coffee, etc. was a great hedge, if not profit maker, against market forces creating volatility in positive/negative margin (between crude plus production costs and gasoline prices) swings.
But it seems to me the increasing price of gasoline in the US is tied more closely to regional/seasonal additive formulas and the high utilization rate of refining capacity then the price of crude. IIRC, a refining facility can not be built, or improved, without adding extremely expensive (overkill) polution abatement equipment - ala "green" girls and boys. In most cases, there was no incentive (as in the probability to make money and recover capital) to building a new refining facility.
In addition, I can't remember what the numbers are, but the amount of tax money collected on gasoline relative to the profits of the oil companies is outrageous higher.
From what I know, money is not easily made, all of the time, in the oil/gasoline business. It's one of the few industries where commodities are the input and output (i.e., crude and gasoline respectively). Sometime back, companies realized selling food, coffee, etc. was a great hedge, if not profit maker, against market forces creating volatility in positive/negative margin (between crude plus production costs and gasoline prices) swings.
But it seems to me the increasing price of gasoline in the US is tied more closely to regional/seasonal additive formulas and the high utilization rate of refining capacity then the price of crude. IIRC, a refining facility can not be built, or improved, without adding extremely expensive (overkill) polution abatement equipment - ala "green" girls and boys. In most cases, there was no incentive (as in the probability to make money and recover capital) to building a new refining facility.
In addition, I can't remember what the numbers are, but the amount of tax money collected on gasoline relative to the profits of the oil companies is outrageous higher.
04-20-2006, 02:22 PM
#60
Drifting
Red UFO 
Virbus, come on. GAS and OIL are FUNGIBLE!!! It does not matter where it is sucked out of the ground, it is a world market and the price is set worldwide. The distribution points should be on the east coast and gulf. There should be LNG ports with large capacity in the northeast and southeast so that we have diversification. Did you ever here in a movie or real life a sargeant say spread out so that 1 grenade wouldn,t kill everyone. Well the grenade was named katrina!!!
Profits are up because we are being gouged because the price is being manipulated and the distributors feel they can get away with it. COLLUSION!!!
And there is just enough being burnt to make electricity to squeeze the gasoline supply! Lack of leadership plain and simple. Whether stupidity or greed or whatever. How many refiners went out of business when gas was $10/barrel. Refiners always made their profit.
Virbus, come on. GAS and OIL are FUNGIBLE!!! It does not matter where it is sucked out of the ground, it is a world market and the price is set worldwide. The distribution points should be on the east coast and gulf. There should be LNG ports with large capacity in the northeast and southeast so that we have diversification. Did you ever here in a movie or real life a sargeant say spread out so that 1 grenade wouldn,t kill everyone. Well the grenade was named katrina!!!
Profits are up because we are being gouged because the price is being manipulated and the distributors feel they can get away with it. COLLUSION!!!
And there is just enough being burnt to make electricity to squeeze the gasoline supply! Lack of leadership plain and simple. Whether stupidity or greed or whatever. How many refiners went out of business when gas was $10/barrel. Refiners always made their profit.