Interior lights - soft off?
03-31-2006, 12:56 PM
#47
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No worries. I enjoy getting encouragement, but I do have a lot of various demands on my time... so I push back occasionally. 
Also, I am on the home stretch -- I have a few lines to add to one writeup, then two more pages(out of 15 in this update!) to complete and I can say I'm caught up on my site. 
Also, I am on the home stretch -- I have a few lines to add to one writeup, then two more pages(out of 15 in this update!) to complete and I can say I'm caught up on my site.
04-01-2006, 01:18 AM
#48
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Sterling,
I've tried a few quick web searches but came up empty-handed. That would be slick, even if it required some rearranging of wires on the back.
I've tried a few quick web searches but came up empty-handed. That would be slick, even if it required some rearranging of wires on the back.
04-01-2006, 05:44 PM
#49
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OK so I quickly built one today - just like my last diagram... just on an experimental breadboard - it works (of course)!
For the immediate dim to off (for the later cars) it may still be easier to revert to something a bit like the first diagram I posted with the zener diode on the capcitor charging side - and delete the gate potentiometer.
Basically works as desired - the quick fade up is kind of a nice effect too.
The current consumption in 'off' mode is basically zero, in on mode the power output stage dissipates ~2W + driving about 60W of lights (2x door,3x roof 1x CE) while when dimming it disspiates about 20W for a few seconds.
Power TX got hot (just OK to touch) with no heatsink dimming my 20W test load... in on mode it was just warm to touch.
Alan.
For the immediate dim to off (for the later cars) it may still be easier to revert to something a bit like the first diagram I posted with the zener diode on the capcitor charging side - and delete the gate potentiometer.
Basically works as desired - the quick fade up is kind of a nice effect too.
The current consumption in 'off' mode is basically zero, in on mode the power output stage dissipates ~2W + driving about 60W of lights (2x door,3x roof 1x CE) while when dimming it disspiates about 20W for a few seconds.
Power TX got hot (just OK to touch) with no heatsink dimming my 20W test load... in on mode it was just warm to touch.
Alan.
04-02-2006, 04:52 AM
#50
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Nice going, Alan! I went to school for this stuff but rarely use it anymore... kudos for getting a prototype up and running so quick! I still don't have all of my parts, but then I haven't had a ton of time to chase parts anyway... main thing I'm still missing is the FET. 
What did you decide on to replace the 500K, or does that still have to be tweaked when the others are changed?
What did you decide on to replace the 500K, or does that still have to be tweaked when the others are changed?
04-02-2006, 01:43 PM
#51
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Dave,
The 500K is just to select the level you want to feed to the gate - this basically sets the delay - although that is also dependant on the fade rate too.
I didn't yet measure the values I ended up with. I played with it and you can certainly achieve the delay goals I set initially.
I'd prefer a version without a (big) heatsink - so I think I'm going to do interior LED bulbs (bright ones) and make this even easier - I did try a single LED and I can get a good LED fade too (different values of course).
I'll see if I can determine the values later - each should be feasible to replace with fixed values (4 resistors - insead of 3 presets).
I'll see if I can do these 3 cases:
OB no relay - Fade up, delay, fade down
Delay Relay - Fade up, no delay, fade down
LED Mode - Fade up, no delay, fade down
Alan
The 500K is just to select the level you want to feed to the gate - this basically sets the delay - although that is also dependant on the fade rate too.
I didn't yet measure the values I ended up with. I played with it and you can certainly achieve the delay goals I set initially.
I'd prefer a version without a (big) heatsink - so I think I'm going to do interior LED bulbs (bright ones) and make this even easier - I did try a single LED and I can get a good LED fade too (different values of course).
I'll see if I can determine the values later - each should be feasible to replace with fixed values (4 resistors - insead of 3 presets).
I'll see if I can do these 3 cases:
OB no relay - Fade up, delay, fade down
Delay Relay - Fade up, no delay, fade down
LED Mode - Fade up, no delay, fade down
Alan
04-02-2006, 02:08 PM
#52
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Alan,
OK, I figured the 500K was to set the point on the "curve" where the FET does it's work. I will probably need different values anyway, since I am only driving the two original interior lights -- and as I said, that may change. I have a small TO-220 heatsink, and a small project box that's about the size of a medium-sized relay can. Once I have all the parts(and the time) it should be pretty smooth sailing, except for finding that connector(maybe). I have a bad feeling it may be the one that's halfway up the passenger side quarter panel, neat the seatbelt anchor.
If you're trying to cover those three cases, maybe you can just figure out where to add an additional terminal that bypasses the delay. If it means adding a resistor or diode or two, that's minor.
OK, I figured the 500K was to set the point on the "curve" where the FET does it's work. I will probably need different values anyway, since I am only driving the two original interior lights -- and as I said, that may change. I have a small TO-220 heatsink, and a small project box that's about the size of a medium-sized relay can. Once I have all the parts(and the time) it should be pretty smooth sailing, except for finding that connector(maybe). I have a bad feeling it may be the one that's halfway up the passenger side quarter panel, neat the seatbelt anchor.
If you're trying to cover those three cases, maybe you can just figure out where to add an additional terminal that bypasses the delay. If it means adding a resistor or diode or two, that's minor.
04-02-2006, 02:59 PM
#53
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This circuit is not really sensitive to loading in how it dims (well within reason) - so 20W or 60W makes little difference in performance except to the dissipated power.
Dave another idea. I always thought it would be nice to have an interior on/switched/off switch for all the lights (most modern cars have something similar). I'd like this to be able to overide the switches to off - for when I want to keep the door open for a while without draining the battery (you can see that would be quite easy to do here).
In fact I think the switched at the individual units was really not a very good design idea...
I'd like all the lights to be in switched mode all the time with switching/delay like the later models use, soft fading and a convenient single interior additional on/switched/off switch.
The current configuration leads to lots of interior light questions and real issues - its just too complicated for very limited (if any) benefits.
Of course an interior switch would really need to be no-delay...
Alan
Dave another idea. I always thought it would be nice to have an interior on/switched/off switch for all the lights (most modern cars have something similar). I'd like this to be able to overide the switches to off - for when I want to keep the door open for a while without draining the battery (you can see that would be quite easy to do here).
In fact I think the switched at the individual units was really not a very good design idea...
I'd like all the lights to be in switched mode all the time with switching/delay like the later models use, soft fading and a convenient single interior additional on/switched/off switch.
The current configuration leads to lots of interior light questions and real issues - its just too complicated for very limited (if any) benefits.
Of course an interior switch would really need to be no-delay...
Alan
04-02-2006, 10:16 PM
#54
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Alan, I think the individually switched idea was fine for the time. People were already freaking out about how much wiring was there. 
It does have some advantages in some cases, like if the back seat passenger(yeah right) wants a light without affecting the driver's vision.
You could use an existing control on the car to do what you want. You could pull apart the intermittent wiper pot and rig it so it has an always-on, neutral, or always-off position. The wiper could contact screw heads potted in epoxy where the coil is now. In the middle position it would work as it does now. Rotating to one extreme turns all lights on, like opening the door. The other extreme position would disable interior lights. You'd use the existing dimmer wire and rig a tri-state circuit that acts differently depending on whether it's floating, grounded, or +12V. The "on" function would then plug into the "non-delay" tap on your design.
It does have some advantages in some cases, like if the back seat passenger(yeah right) wants a light without affecting the driver's vision.You could use an existing control on the car to do what you want. You could pull apart the intermittent wiper pot and rig it so it has an always-on, neutral, or always-off position. The wiper could contact screw heads potted in epoxy where the coil is now. In the middle position it would work as it does now. Rotating to one extreme turns all lights on, like opening the door. The other extreme position would disable interior lights. You'd use the existing dimmer wire and rig a tri-state circuit that acts differently depending on whether it's floating, grounded, or +12V. The "on" function would then plug into the "non-delay" tap on your design.
04-03-2006, 01:13 PM
#55
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Dave,
Yes that would be a good spot and my wiper pot was made redundant several years ago (as you know - yours too right?). I hadn't actually thoughy about just hacking up the original - but I guess its just a wirewound with a wiper on it right? (humm so many projects so little time...)
I have ordered 2 x 44mm Festoon LED bulbs with 9 Bright White LED's in each - I'll see how they look - If they work OK I'm going to swap all of mine out - I want to avoid that big-ish heatsink I'll need otherwise.
Anyone have a spare S4+ Intermittent Wiper Potentiometer and Intesnive Washer Button panel I can use to experiment on?
Looking at the existing circuit one extra transistor and resistor will cover the functionality for that mode too - and it can just be left disconnected if not needed, however I'd need all three terminals of the new switch... I already have spare wiring to the pod so no big deal.
Sorry, I didn't take the measurements yet on Rx values - still tbd.
Alan
PS Dave BTW when your web updates are done let me know - I'd like to take a browse...
Yes that would be a good spot and my wiper pot was made redundant several years ago (as you know - yours too right?). I hadn't actually thoughy about just hacking up the original - but I guess its just a wirewound with a wiper on it right? (humm so many projects so little time...)
I have ordered 2 x 44mm Festoon LED bulbs with 9 Bright White LED's in each - I'll see how they look - If they work OK I'm going to swap all of mine out - I want to avoid that big-ish heatsink I'll need otherwise.
Anyone have a spare S4+ Intermittent Wiper Potentiometer and Intesnive Washer Button panel I can use to experiment on?
Looking at the existing circuit one extra transistor and resistor will cover the functionality for that mode too - and it can just be left disconnected if not needed, however I'd need all three terminals of the new switch... I already have spare wiring to the pod so no big deal.
Sorry, I didn't take the measurements yet on Rx values - still tbd.
Alan
PS Dave BTW when your web updates are done let me know - I'd like to take a browse...
04-03-2006, 02:26 PM
#56
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Alan, you should only need the pot itself. The panel shouldn't be necessary? Also, the pot has wire wound... around air! It's just a loose coil of wire inside there, easy to rip out... unless later cars use a different part(doubtful).
I'm curious to hear what you think of the LED lights, whether they are as bright as the bulbs they replace. The heatsink I'll be using is about half the size of a Zippo, which should be more than enough to handle the two lights I have, the two red in-door lights I may add someday, and the puddle lights I may add someday. But using LEDs offers additional advantages, like not having to worry about heat if a door or the hatch is left open for a long time...
Sounds like you're considering integrating functionality into the existing circuit with minimum complication. After thinking more about my original suggestion, I suppose it's easier to run more wires than to set up the logic required.
I almost posted my updates last night... but I want to take one or two more pics of my garage lighting project to better show some of the challenges that were overcome. I'll probably post tonight after work. Check the homepage for a quick hint about how to spot updates.
I'm curious to hear what you think of the LED lights, whether they are as bright as the bulbs they replace. The heatsink I'll be using is about half the size of a Zippo, which should be more than enough to handle the two lights I have, the two red in-door lights I may add someday, and the puddle lights I may add someday. But using LEDs offers additional advantages, like not having to worry about heat if a door or the hatch is left open for a long time...
Sounds like you're considering integrating functionality into the existing circuit with minimum complication. After thinking more about my original suggestion, I suppose it's easier to run more wires than to set up the logic required.
I almost posted my updates last night... but I want to take one or two more pics of my garage lighting project to better show some of the challenges that were overcome. I'll probably post tonight after work. Check the homepage for a quick hint about how to spot updates.
04-03-2006, 02:43 PM
#57
Drifting
The white festoons (9 LEDs) are the way to go. Bright, but not too bright. White light, with a slight bluish cast.
But don't forget the door safety lamps, those can be replaced with red LEDs too. I used the clear focused BA9's then sanded the tops flat and beveled the top edge for a nice even illumination of the red lense. Very bright but low current.
http://autolumination.com/otherleds.htm
They used to have a deep red, which is what I have installed. You might ask about that.
But don't forget the door safety lamps, those can be replaced with red LEDs too. I used the clear focused BA9's then sanded the tops flat and beveled the top edge for a nice even illumination of the red lense. Very bright but low current.
http://autolumination.com/otherleds.htm
They used to have a deep red, which is what I have installed. You might ask about that.
04-03-2006, 04:09 PM
#58
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Dave,
Yeah the wiring is the easy bit (actually I only need to run 2 wires the center pole is a gnd).
My reason for wanting a panel with pot AND switch is related to another secret project - hint GTS's do not come with the intensive wsh switch (hush!)...
Borland yes I may want to swap out the door end lights - although they are only 2W each so I could just leave them in - managable...
Heres the updated schematic - the Zener diode works best for the no delay case (less tricky to set up the fade & delay to make that work right). Once I figure out the values I converged on - I'll update the diagram some more with the fixed values. I added the overide switch here (blue) - these inputs/componets could be deleted or just leave floating for later addition...
Alan
PS I'll have to be careful post # 928 is coming up fast !!
Yeah the wiring is the easy bit (actually I only need to run 2 wires the center pole is a gnd).
My reason for wanting a panel with pot AND switch is related to another secret project - hint GTS's do not come with the intensive wsh switch (hush!)...
Borland yes I may want to swap out the door end lights - although they are only 2W each so I could just leave them in - managable...
Heres the updated schematic - the Zener diode works best for the no delay case (less tricky to set up the fade & delay to make that work right). Once I figure out the values I converged on - I'll update the diagram some more with the fixed values. I added the overide switch here (blue) - these inputs/componets could be deleted or just leave floating for later addition...
Alan
PS I'll have to be careful post # 928 is coming up fast !!
Last edited by Alan; 04-04-2006 at 02:44 PM.
04-04-2006, 03:29 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Nice, Alan... So I take it that the jumper and the zener should be omitted where there is no delay relay present? I'm looking forward to building this... looks like a fun project, adding a nice touch.
It occurs to me that the thing that is ergonomically wrong with the interval pot may be a problem with this -- which way to turn it? I guess it could be built either way to suit preference, but I may just add something tactile so I can tell where the switch is set without having to move it.
BTW, my site is getting updated tonight, but rennlist is only letting me upload ~150 files at a time, then I have to kill & restart ftp.
Sucks when you're trying to sync up 1500+ files...
It occurs to me that the thing that is ergonomically wrong with the interval pot may be a problem with this -- which way to turn it? I guess it could be built either way to suit preference, but I may just add something tactile so I can tell where the switch is set without having to move it.
BTW, my site is getting updated tonight, but rennlist is only letting me upload ~150 files at a time, then I have to kill & restart ftp.
Sucks when you're trying to sync up 1500+ files...
04-04-2006, 02:07 PM
#60
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Dave,
I think the Pot conversion idea is still good. The switch gives instant feedback - it goes on/off as intended or not => try the other way. The issue with the intermittent was mainly the long delay and iterative closure/tracking.
I tried measuring the values briefly last night (till my wife insisted I work on our taxes instead!).
There is a problem with ~12v - ~14v as a working range - the delay and dimming values vary too much between these. I'm not happy with this result so I think both modes really need a Zener diode to stablilize the timing capacitor voltage regardless of the 30 supply voltage level.
The no-delay should still use the 4.3V Zener and the delay version can use a 12V Zener and then it will always behave with the exact same timing. I updated the last circuit diagram I posted for these changes. I do not have either Zener diode yet so will need to wait till I get them for the better measurements.
I posted a peek at my dinky breadboard while dimming (20w halogen bulb)
Alan
I think the Pot conversion idea is still good. The switch gives instant feedback - it goes on/off as intended or not => try the other way. The issue with the intermittent was mainly the long delay and iterative closure/tracking.
I tried measuring the values briefly last night (till my wife insisted I work on our taxes instead!).
There is a problem with ~12v - ~14v as a working range - the delay and dimming values vary too much between these. I'm not happy with this result so I think both modes really need a Zener diode to stablilize the timing capacitor voltage regardless of the 30 supply voltage level.
The no-delay should still use the 4.3V Zener and the delay version can use a 12V Zener and then it will always behave with the exact same timing. I updated the last circuit diagram I posted for these changes. I do not have either Zener diode yet so will need to wait till I get them for the better measurements.
I posted a peek at my dinky breadboard while dimming (20w halogen bulb)
Alan