Drilled Crank Thoughts...
10-12-2007, 01:55 AM
#211
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Mark....
A small percentage of the population lives until they are over 110 years old, also. But eventually.......poof!
Luck plays a big part in this survival.
Have you ever run that beast at Willow Springs?
A small percentage of the population lives until they are over 110 years old, also. But eventually.......poof!
Luck plays a big part in this survival.
Have you ever run that beast at Willow Springs?
10-12-2007, 12:59 PM
#212
Rennlist Member
But, a large percentage of them have several things in common. 
Luck is a small part of success. certainly it can be important. However, its much easier to creat your own bad luck!
an engine is still an engine. if the oiling problem was such an issue, you would think my engine would have had a problem by now. IF, foaming and ejection is an issue, and it is oil related, then IF Amsoil reduces this issue, then maybe it could be a cure. so many factors, and we have seen failures with most all the preventative cures. could be how you drive the car, where you shift, oil levels, whether or not youre banging off the rev limiter, missing gears, etc.
yes, I raced my other 928 there 3 times in the R5 POC races. However my car has not been there. Thunderhill turn 2 is a lot harder on the engine, and its a left, not right.
Its not just a lucky car, i had a lot of race hours with my 4.7 , my 5.0L euro, now scots motor has run most the entire season, logging more race hours than many 928 races over their 928's racing life. the only thing in common with our environment has been Amzoil, keeping the oil level correct, and no oiling modificatons to the engine. by they way, scot doesnt even have the oil cooler hooked up. (oil temps for him in the 260F range during races)
mode of failure of an engine is probably differnt than a human. humans die, engines parts wear out. usually, i would expect, if properly lubricated, rings wear, gaskets fail, and failure could be progressive. We could put some money on this. i would bet that the failure of my engine would be due to something else rather than a #2/6 bearing siezure.
mk
Luck is a small part of success. certainly it can be important. However, its much easier to creat your own bad luck!
an engine is still an engine. if the oiling problem was such an issue, you would think my engine would have had a problem by now. IF, foaming and ejection is an issue, and it is oil related, then IF Amsoil reduces this issue, then maybe it could be a cure. so many factors, and we have seen failures with most all the preventative cures. could be how you drive the car, where you shift, oil levels, whether or not youre banging off the rev limiter, missing gears, etc.
yes, I raced my other 928 there 3 times in the R5 POC races. However my car has not been there. Thunderhill turn 2 is a lot harder on the engine, and its a left, not right.
Its not just a lucky car, i had a lot of race hours with my 4.7 , my 5.0L euro, now scots motor has run most the entire season, logging more race hours than many 928 races over their 928's racing life. the only thing in common with our environment has been Amzoil, keeping the oil level correct, and no oiling modificatons to the engine. by they way, scot doesnt even have the oil cooler hooked up. (oil temps for him in the 260F range during races)
mode of failure of an engine is probably differnt than a human. humans die, engines parts wear out. usually, i would expect, if properly lubricated, rings wear, gaskets fail, and failure could be progressive. We could put some money on this. i would bet that the failure of my engine would be due to something else rather than a #2/6 bearing siezure.
mk
10-12-2007, 03:25 PM
#214
In Your Face, Ace
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10-12-2007, 04:57 PM
#215
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because of all the success i have had with 4 other cars, plus the majority of failures have been using Mobil 1 which i have seen to compromise oil pressure when racing hot.
did you ever determine what could have been the reason for the failures? who built the engines, what were the bearing cleaances, were you using an accusump? rpms run? were you banging off the rev limiter like one of the videos i watched on line? Im sure there are many factors, but i can ask the same thing. why would you ignor the fact that my engines have been so successful running amzoil in racing conditions.
maybe it is luck, but even as superstitious as i am, maybe the anti foaming qualities of amsoil could protect our 928s for some of the reasons the engine fails.
did you ever determine what could have been the reason for the failures? who built the engines, what were the bearing cleaances, were you using an accusump? rpms run? were you banging off the rev limiter like one of the videos i watched on line? Im sure there are many factors, but i can ask the same thing. why would you ignor the fact that my engines have been so successful running amzoil in racing conditions.
maybe it is luck, but even as superstitious as i am, maybe the anti foaming qualities of amsoil could protect our 928s for some of the reasons the engine fails.
10-12-2007, 05:13 PM
#216
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Umm, seems like some good rumors you have going there. "banging off the rev limiter" is one, since any video of mine wouldn't even show the tach. And then we could discuss the fact that my car had no rev limiter ever. This sounds a bit like when you dissed all east coast racers for seeing a video of one who's driving skills you questioned.
Just because you haven't had a failure and use Amsoil isn't any evidence that Amsoil is the reason. I am not aware that you have provided any proof that Amsoil has anything to do with your lack of issues.
I use Amsoil and have had motor's fail. Using your rational, Amsoil must be the cause, as you ignore any other factors.
I am not dissing Amsoil here, just your reasoning which is lacking any proof.
Just because you haven't had a failure and use Amsoil isn't any evidence that Amsoil is the reason. I am not aware that you have provided any proof that Amsoil has anything to do with your lack of issues.
I use Amsoil and have had motor's fail. Using your rational, Amsoil must be the cause, as you ignore any other factors.
I am not dissing Amsoil here, just your reasoning which is lacking any proof.
because of all the success i have had with 4 other cars, plus the majority of failures have been using Mobil 1 which i have seen to compromise oil pressure when racing hot.
did you ever determine what could have been the reason for the failures? who built the engines, what were the bearing cleaances, were you using an accusump? rpms run? were you banging off the rev limiter like one of the videos i watched on line? Im sure there are many factors, but i can ask the same thing. why would you ignor the fact that my engines have been so successful running amzoil in racing conditions.
maybe it is luck, but even as superstitious as i am, maybe the anti foaming qualities of amsoil could protect our 928s for some of the reasons the engine fails.
did you ever determine what could have been the reason for the failures? who built the engines, what were the bearing cleaances, were you using an accusump? rpms run? were you banging off the rev limiter like one of the videos i watched on line? Im sure there are many factors, but i can ask the same thing. why would you ignor the fact that my engines have been so successful running amzoil in racing conditions.
maybe it is luck, but even as superstitious as i am, maybe the anti foaming qualities of amsoil could protect our 928s for some of the reasons the engine fails.
10-12-2007, 05:31 PM
#217
Nordschleife Master
Something to consider is not just driving style but the tracks driven. I'll wager that slower "technical" tracks produce less wear.
Another thing to consider is that a lot more people run Mobil1 than Amsoil. Is the proportion of failures with Mobil1 greater than the proportion of people using it?
I was looking at the old 928 Cup Car docs last night. They describe putting a scraper into the oil pans instead of a dry sump which was too expensive. I wonder...
10-12-2007, 05:34 PM
#218
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Im not dissing any racers, im just trying to look at all possible options. based my experience, and the tests i have done, the 90 race days seems to be good proof that something is working. Then, as most do, they suspect the holbert engine as being special. Then, i have to toss out the other half of my racing career, racing a the same engines with none of the mods, only the oil being the common denominator. Scot as well.
We never did a post mortum on your engine or DL's. was there a lack of oil pressure before the time of failure? We all know there are many factors the cause engine failures. The fact that i have run a 928 engine so hard for so long, has to make you wonder what is the secret? But then again, what made my previous engine so dependable also? how about scot, why is his staying together?
I rode in the car with DH, before his engine grenaded. he banged off the rev limiter like it was a shift light. I still wonder if those forces could contribute to a rod bearing issue. His engine grenaded shortly there after. (mobil1 also).
We do know statistically, there has been many times more engines grenade with mobil 1. unfortunately, there has not been enough folks racing on Amzoil to compare. If i was new to the 928 racing world, i sure know what oil i wouldnt put in my 928 racer! and for 1-2$ per quart per 3 weekends, its cheap insurance. can you prove to me that the oil isnt the reason for my success?
mk
We never did a post mortum on your engine or DL's. was there a lack of oil pressure before the time of failure? We all know there are many factors the cause engine failures. The fact that i have run a 928 engine so hard for so long, has to make you wonder what is the secret? But then again, what made my previous engine so dependable also? how about scot, why is his staying together?
I rode in the car with DH, before his engine grenaded. he banged off the rev limiter like it was a shift light. I still wonder if those forces could contribute to a rod bearing issue. His engine grenaded shortly there after. (mobil1 also).
We do know statistically, there has been many times more engines grenade with mobil 1. unfortunately, there has not been enough folks racing on Amzoil to compare. If i was new to the 928 racing world, i sure know what oil i wouldnt put in my 928 racer! and for 1-2$ per quart per 3 weekends, its cheap insurance. can you prove to me that the oil isnt the reason for my success?
mk
Umm, seems like some good rumors you have going there. "banging off the rev limiter" is one, since any video of mine wouldn't even show the tach. And then we could discuss the fact that my car had no rev limiter ever. This sounds a bit like when you dissed all east coast racers for seeing a video of one who's driving skills you questioned.
Just because you haven't had a failure and use Amsoil isn't any evidence that Amsoil is the reason. I am not aware that you have provided any proof that Amsoil has anything to do with your lack of issues.
I use Amsoil and have had motor's fail. Using your rational, Amsoil must be the cause, as you ignore any other factors.
I am not dissing Amsoil here, just your reasoning which is lacking any proof.
Just because you haven't had a failure and use Amsoil isn't any evidence that Amsoil is the reason. I am not aware that you have provided any proof that Amsoil has anything to do with your lack of issues.
I use Amsoil and have had motor's fail. Using your rational, Amsoil must be the cause, as you ignore any other factors.
I am not dissing Amsoil here, just your reasoning which is lacking any proof.
10-12-2007, 05:46 PM
#219
Rennlist Member
"people" didnt show up. Only JL and was able to at least beat his best time of the weekend. And being new to the track and with really bad tires, i was only a second off Jfan in almost the same car with new Hoosiers, while i had pretty crappy tires. I was not running hard, nor was there many open laps to run. my tires were proved to be 2-3 seconds off the pace when i tested them back home, before i realized the secret about "good' used Hoosiers. They arent! as far as raw time, everyone seemed to be running 2 seconds slower due to the weather and a caution that sat at just before canada corner for most all of the 10lap race.
the tracks we run out here have as fast of turns as most anywhere. Thunderhill, Laguna seca, and Sears (infinion) are not as fast as RA, because of shorter straights, but the turns are high speed sweepers and they are as fast as most anywhere. carocell at Sears, turn 2 at thunderhill, turn 9 at Laguna, alll are max G turns with high rpms.
as far as the cup 928, are you thinking the holbert car could have one? anyone got one of those special cameras so we can look up the oil drain hole and see what there is to see?
Mk
the tracks we run out here have as fast of turns as most anywhere. Thunderhill, Laguna seca, and Sears (infinion) are not as fast as RA, because of shorter straights, but the turns are high speed sweepers and they are as fast as most anywhere. carocell at Sears, turn 2 at thunderhill, turn 9 at Laguna, alll are max G turns with high rpms.
as far as the cup 928, are you thinking the holbert car could have one? anyone got one of those special cameras so we can look up the oil drain hole and see what there is to see?
Mk
I recall that, I believe. Mark then came out to RA to "destroy" people and didn't.
Add me to the "blew up with Amsoil" list. No detailed postmortem available. Do have the bearings ground down to the copper. Ran a year and a half first with probably 25-30 track hours in.
Something to consider is not just driving style but the tracks driven. I'll wager that slower "technical" tracks produce less wear.
Another thing to consider is that a lot more people run Mobil1 than Amsoil. Is the proportion of failures with Mobil1 greater than the proportion of people using it?
I was looking at the old 928 Cup Car docs last night. They describe putting a scraper into the oil pans instead of a dry sump which was too expensive. I wonder...
Add me to the "blew up with Amsoil" list. No detailed postmortem available. Do have the bearings ground down to the copper. Ran a year and a half first with probably 25-30 track hours in.
Something to consider is not just driving style but the tracks driven. I'll wager that slower "technical" tracks produce less wear.
Another thing to consider is that a lot more people run Mobil1 than Amsoil. Is the proportion of failures with Mobil1 greater than the proportion of people using it?
I was looking at the old 928 Cup Car docs last night. They describe putting a scraper into the oil pans instead of a dry sump which was too expensive. I wonder...
10-12-2007, 06:00 PM
#220
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No, but just because I can't doesn't make it so. If you want to make the claim, then you need to provide the proof.
DL and JV were there the prior year and set times which you did not annihilate as you said you would. I for one, am not interested in your excuses about tires, etc. etc. etc. You made the claim that you would annihilate their times and didn't. They didn't need to be there for you to fail in your claim.
Mark, probably everyone on Rennlist gives you respect for what you do, and have accomplished, including me. Don't let it fill your head so much that you lose track of reason, it gets old.
"people" didnt show up. Only JL and was able to at least beat his best time of the weekend. And being new to the track and with really bad tires, i was only a second off Jfan in almost the same car with new Hoosiers, while i had pretty crappy tires. I was not running hard, nor was there many open laps to run. my tires were proved to be 2-3 seconds off the pace when i tested them back home, before i realized the secret about "good' used Hoosiers. They arent! as far as raw time, everyone seemed to be running 2 seconds slower due to the weather and a caution that sat at just before canada corner for most all of the 10lap race.
the tracks we run out here have as fast of turns as most anywhere. Thunderhill, Laguna seca, and Sears (infinion) are not as fast as RA, because of shorter straights, but the turns are high speed sweepers and they are as fast as most anywhere. carocell at Sears, turn 2 at thunderhill, turn 9 at Laguna, alll are max G turns with high rpms.
as far as the cup 928, are you thinking the holbert car could have one? anyone got one of those special cameras so we can look up the oil drain hole and see what there is to see?
Mk
the tracks we run out here have as fast of turns as most anywhere. Thunderhill, Laguna seca, and Sears (infinion) are not as fast as RA, because of shorter straights, but the turns are high speed sweepers and they are as fast as most anywhere. carocell at Sears, turn 2 at thunderhill, turn 9 at Laguna, alll are max G turns with high rpms.
as far as the cup 928, are you thinking the holbert car could have one? anyone got one of those special cameras so we can look up the oil drain hole and see what there is to see?
Mk
Mark, probably everyone on Rennlist gives you respect for what you do, and have accomplished, including me. Don't let it fill your head so much that you lose track of reason, it gets old.
10-12-2007, 06:11 PM
#221
Rennlist Member
hey, racing is all about excuses!
yes, i didnt annihilate. my expectations were going off the times i run with the guys that had shown up for World challenge events at RA. Hey, i admitted, i didnt reach my expectations, (2:30ish) , but when i did find out about how bad those tires where that i thought i had got such a good deal on (free), it came clear to me of part of the reason for my shortfall timewise. However, Anderson ran 2:21 while the previous year with DL and JV, he ran 2:18. conditions were likely the reason for the delta in times for all the drivers.
now, proof of the oil being responsible? well, as i have said, all i have is my own superstition and stats. maybe keeping the revs below 6300rpm is the key, who knows. maybe its keeping the revs below 5000rpm in the turns.
When we pull my motor, maybe we will see something that is different, maybe not.
And Stan, thanks for the comment about what i have been doing! A lot of this is tongue and cheek, but your right, if we are to find the fix to this 928 weakness, we need to focus on the facts.
Mk
yes, i didnt annihilate. my expectations were going off the times i run with the guys that had shown up for World challenge events at RA. Hey, i admitted, i didnt reach my expectations, (2:30ish) , but when i did find out about how bad those tires where that i thought i had got such a good deal on (free), it came clear to me of part of the reason for my shortfall timewise. However, Anderson ran 2:21 while the previous year with DL and JV, he ran 2:18. conditions were likely the reason for the delta in times for all the drivers.
now, proof of the oil being responsible? well, as i have said, all i have is my own superstition and stats. maybe keeping the revs below 6300rpm is the key, who knows. maybe its keeping the revs below 5000rpm in the turns.
When we pull my motor, maybe we will see something that is different, maybe not.
And Stan, thanks for the comment about what i have been doing! A lot of this is tongue and cheek, but your right, if we are to find the fix to this 928 weakness, we need to focus on the facts.
Mk
No, but just because I can't doesn't make it so. If you want to make the claim, then you need to provide the proof.
DL and JV were there the prior year and set times which you did not annihilate as you said you would. I for one, am not interested in your excuses about tires, etc. etc. etc. You made the claim that you would annihilate their times and didn't. They didn't need to be there for you to fail in your claim.
Mark, probably everyone on Rennlist gives you respect for what you do, and have accomplished, including me. Don't let it fill your head so much that you lose track of reason, it gets old.
DL and JV were there the prior year and set times which you did not annihilate as you said you would. I for one, am not interested in your excuses about tires, etc. etc. etc. You made the claim that you would annihilate their times and didn't. They didn't need to be there for you to fail in your claim.
Mark, probably everyone on Rennlist gives you respect for what you do, and have accomplished, including me. Don't let it fill your head so much that you lose track of reason, it gets old.
10-12-2007, 07:36 PM
#223
Rennlist Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIOQA0PtSmQ&NR=1
This guy was cruising around Zandvoort. sometimes i thought the engine was going to die, the revs were so low what was that 928, stock or stroker?
Mk
This guy was cruising around Zandvoort. sometimes i thought the engine was going to die, the revs were so low
what was that 928, stock or stroker?Mk
There is a guy that comes to the PRI show who sells boroscopes with all sorts of adaptors. I can try to find his name if you'd like to get one. That's how they did the study at MIT on oil foaming. Might be a pretty scary video; be sitting down when you watch.
Myself, I liked Mark Anderson's video on youtube (Erkka, yours too at the Ring) and especially Jean-Paul's as he passes a 911 at Zandvoort. Seminal moment there. Edit: ... as he bangs against the 6750 red shift light on the dash. Later they raised the shift point to 7200.
Myself, I liked Mark Anderson's video on youtube (Erkka, yours too at the Ring) and especially Jean-Paul's as he passes a 911 at Zandvoort. Seminal moment there. Edit: ... as he bangs against the 6750 red shift light on the dash. Later they raised the shift point to 7200.
01-09-2008, 12:54 PM
#224
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Two summers ago I lost a fresh 4.7 engine on the track at Portland International. That engine had a full Kevin Johnson windage tray and crank scraper and was running Mobil 1. Last September I lost another 4.7, this time with no scraper, but WITH AMSOIL and an improved breather. Neither engine was run past 6K rpm. Both happened within the first hour of tracking. On both, the 2/6 rod bearing failed.
The new engine will have a dry sump, improved breather, Accusump, and drilled crank and all the mojo I can muster.
Regarding the 300+ preceding pages of discussion, there is NO proof of anything anywhere, except that these engines regularly burn up their 2/6 rod bearings. Virtually nothing else has failed. I'm concentrating on the care and feeding of my 2/6 rod bearings because it would appear that that is the only way I'm going to get any track time.
And if this one fails, I won't need to get another Chevy drilled crank because the next engine will be a Chevy.
Dave
The new engine will have a dry sump, improved breather, Accusump, and drilled crank and all the mojo I can muster.
Regarding the 300+ preceding pages of discussion, there is NO proof of anything anywhere, except that these engines regularly burn up their 2/6 rod bearings. Virtually nothing else has failed. I'm concentrating on the care and feeding of my 2/6 rod bearings because it would appear that that is the only way I'm going to get any track time.
And if this one fails, I won't need to get another Chevy drilled crank because the next engine will be a Chevy.
Dave
01-09-2008, 01:53 PM
#225
Two summers ago I lost a fresh 4.7 engine on the track at Portland International. That engine had a full Kevin Johnson windage tray and crank scraper and was running Mobil 1. Last September I lost another 4.7, this time with no scraper, but WITH AMSOIL and an improved breather. Neither engine was run past 6K rpm. Both happened within the first hour of tracking. On both, the 2/6 rod bearing failed.
The new engine will have a dry sump, improved breather, Accusump, and drilled crank and all the mojo I can muster.
Regarding the 300+ preceding pages of discussion, there is NO proof of anything anywhere, except that these engines regularly burn up their 2/6 rod bearings. Virtually nothing else has failed. I'm concentrating on the care and feeding of my 2/6 rod bearings because it would appear that that is the only way I'm going to get any track time.
And if this one fails, I won't need to get another Chevy drilled crank because the next engine will be a Chevy.
Dave
The new engine will have a dry sump, improved breather, Accusump, and drilled crank and all the mojo I can muster.
Regarding the 300+ preceding pages of discussion, there is NO proof of anything anywhere, except that these engines regularly burn up their 2/6 rod bearings. Virtually nothing else has failed. I'm concentrating on the care and feeding of my 2/6 rod bearings because it would appear that that is the only way I'm going to get any track time.
And if this one fails, I won't need to get another Chevy drilled crank because the next engine will be a Chevy.
Dave