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Blagave claims that a brake upgrade designed for a 2750 pound, 150 horsepower 4 cylinder1984 944, which might go 120mph on a downhill run, is the perfect application for a 3500 pound, 625 horsepower, "Pro Touring" Suoercharged Chevy V8 thst has the "potential" to go well over 200mph.
Everyone on the thread agrees 100%, except for Greg, who knows nothing about 928's, V8 conversions, anything to do with high performance, and is just being an "A hole", because he's "off his medication".
Blagave claims that a brake upgrade designed for a 2750 pound, 150 horsepower 4 cylinder1984 944, which might go 120mph on a downhill run, is the perfect application for a 3500 pound, 625 horsepower, "Pro Touring" Suoercharged Chevy V8 thst has the "potential" to go well over 200mph.
Once again Greg you are making things up. Please show me that I have claimed anything regarding the brakes......your mouth is always running without listening......show us where I made the claims about the brakes or shut up!!
Everyone on the thread agrees 100%, except for Greg, who knows nothing about 928's, V8 conversions, anything to do with high performance, and is just being an "A hole", because he's "off his medication".
Finally, you got something right....good job, you deserve a cookie.
As to the brake argument Greg is making, for those trying to play along at home....Greg doesn't like the fact that the 330mm rotor being used is larger than the brake caliper / pad.
The 330mm rotor in question is from a 2011 or so Cayenne: a 4,700lb vehicle
Largest stock 928 rotor is the GTS @ 322mm
Running a larger rotor in such a way is a "budget" way to increase the size / power of your brakes. I found this post on another forum that explains it better than I could: Of course bigger rotors improve braking performance.....even with the same calipers and brake pressure (the other two variables in brake performance). It has more torque (force x distance to moment) due to the longer moment. It also has more 'metal' passing through the caliper for a given rotation.....and finally on the thermodynamics side, there is more mass in the rotor to act as a heat soak, and more surface area to dissipate said heat. All positive things for a brake system.
This technique has been discussed at great length in this forum and for the most part, an accepted practice.
As Greg also pointed out, this practice is never used (that I'm aware of) in OEM applications......kind of. There are cases where manufacturers increased caliper / rotor size but did not increase the size of the brake pad.
Pad size can also come into play, my research did not easily pull up what size pad is used with these Willwood calipers.
The original post was a discussion of the pros and cons of an LS swap. That's absolutely not what it's about now...
One con to an LS swap is significantly increasing the power of a car without increasing the size of the brakes, which has been Greg's overall point. We just went a bit sideways as many topics do around here.
In my humble opinion, with an 86.5 or S4 it's really a moot point. S cars it's borderline.....78-82 it's a major negative.
In a thread discussing the pros and cons of increasing HP, side discussions of how to improve other areas of the car accordingly are right on point.
Since you are thinking of upgrading an 82, I think it's something you should be looking into. I upgraded the brakes in my 81 before supercharging it.
Hacker,
When i was reading Xschop's thread on the brake upgrade, there were a few members that asked to buy a set, you included. Did you ever go through buying and installing a set? If you did, can you share your experince with the brakes.
Correction.........Sorry.....it was not Hacker that inquired about a set.
If anyone else has a set of the Xschop upgrade,it would be nice to hear some feedback.
Hacker,
When i was reading Xschop's thread on the brake upgrade, there were a few members that asked to buy a set, you included. Did you ever go through buying and installing a set? If you did, can you share your experince with the brakes.
No, never got a set of the adapters. I recall talking to Xschop offline about some other ideas / calipers and what not but nothing went forward. We started house shopping that spring of 2011 and all car stuff was put on hold for a while.
As Greg also pointed out, this practice is never used (that I'm aware of) in OEM applications......kind of. There are cases where manufacturers increased caliper / rotor size but did not increase the size of the brake pad.
Pad size can also come into play, my research did not easily pull up what size pad is used with these Willwood calipers.
Not common practice but usually OE with an Alu hat rotor usually use just a thinner friction ring with a large hat to save weight Why? becasue the inner 40% of the rotor is far less important than the outer 60%.
Nothing wrong with this approach when not using an Alu hat.
Here is 1 OE example.
Here is an Willwood caliper with Willwood alu hat and Willwood rotor and trim rotor. No OE but certainly used in racing.
I guess this explains why anyone with ANY of your engines do not need to upgrade their brakes then.
Your engines are anything but 'high horsepower' and should/could be installed in tractors.
And this is why you 'forbade' Randy V from disclosing his rwhp numbers since apparently, they're nothing to brag or be proud about - and especially for the price involved.
This post is just hilarious....people slinging **** to see if anything will actually stick!
Randy can do and does do whatever he pleases.
The fact is, Randy's engine was never dynoed...no one was interested enough to dyno it and the schedule to finish the car was extremely tight.
And I always encourage people to upgrade the brakes when they install my increased power engines.
As to the brake argument Greg is making, for those trying to play along at home....Greg doesn't like the fact that the 330mm rotor being used is larger than the brake caliper / pad.
The 330mm rotor in question is from a 2011 or so Cayenne: a 4,700lb vehicle
Largest stock 928 rotor is the GTS @ 322mm
Running a larger rotor in such a way is a "budget" way to increase the size / power of your brakes. I found this post on another forum that explains it better than I could: Of course bigger rotors improve braking performance.....even with the same calipers and brake pressure (the other two variables in brake performance). It has more torque (force x distance to moment) due to the longer moment. It also has more 'metal' passing through the caliper for a given rotation.....and finally on the thermodynamics side, there is more mass in the rotor to act as a heat soak, and more surface area to dissipate said heat. All positive things for a brake system.
This technique has been discussed at great length in this forum and for the most part, an accepted practice.
As Greg also pointed out, this practice is never used (that I'm aware of) in OEM applications......kind of. There are cases where manufacturers increased caliper / rotor size but did not increase the size of the brake pad.
Pad size can also come into play, my research did not easily pull up what size pad is used with these Willwood calipers.
Close.
I'm actually concerned about the pad area of this caliper. A stock 944 turbo has a much larger pad area than this caliper. Lighter, less power, less acceleration/speed potential. Dramatically larger brake pads!
Brakes work by friction. Friction turns to heat. People install larger calipers with larger pads in order to "absorb" this additional heat, as the power potential of a given car increases.
These calipers have pads the size of stock "early" 928's. They are going to stop adequately, until the pads overheat. You drive the car to "cars and coffee" it's entire life...no issue. You drive it like a "Pro Touring" car it is supposed to be...you are going to die.
Anyone want to go 200mph in this car and have to stop in a big hurry?
Hell, let's make up some adaptors and fit thsee calipers onto a Veyron. Would save some significant weight and the brake pads would be 1/50 the price of stock pads!
Of course, everyone here knows (hopefully) that would ne a ridiculous idea.
Yet, these front brakes are the perfect application for the potential of this car?
The choice of calipers, for this car, is severely mismatched to the potential of this car!
You people that are debating this are making idiots out of yourselves.
Get over it. Move on.
Last edited by GregBBRD; Jun 28, 2019 at 04:50 PM.
I'm actually concerned about the pad area of this caliper.
Hmm....thought somebody made such a comment, I'm probably bouncing between too many threads for my own good.
Anyway it was a fun exercise in increasing rotor size.
Ok, to pad volume. I was curious myself.
Originally Posted by GregBBRD
Look at what is contacting your rotor. You have approximately the swept pad area of a 1981 928, which is 6.9 square inches per pad. I doubt your swept pad area even gets to 1983 928S specs of 8.1 square inches!
Not questioning, just curious, where are you getting your numbers? I was trying to find them somewhere without having to manually measure them.
The definition of Pro Tour is a bit all over the place. When I see the 67 Camero's going across the block at Barrett Jackson / Mecum or Coffee & cars and they said to be Pro Tour, that is what I consider my build. The cars are not race cars, but have upgraded drive train, suspension and modern technology, I never said my car was a race car. It is a car you can get in and drive anywhere with modern ammenties.....I guess it should have been called Grand Tour, but I am sure someone would find a problem with the classification.
“Pro-Touring is a style of classic muscle car with enhanced suspension components, brake system, drivetrain, and aesthetics, including many of the amenities of a new performance car.” A fair enough definition by most. One thing to note is the use of the dash between Pro and Touring. Other results omitted this dash.
“A simple concept, really: take an old car and make it accelerate, brake and corner like a modern day sports car. There are no wrong or right parts as long as they somehow contribute to the acceleration, braking and cornering of a vehicle. There are definitely compromises like adding weight with A/C and a stereo system and sound insulation, but those are the realities of a street car. While these things may hinder ultimate performance they do contribute to the overall driving experience of a vehicle.”
Hacker,
When i was reading Xschop's thread on the brake upgrade, there were a few members that asked to buy a set, you included. Did you ever go through buying and installing a set? If you did, can you share your experince with the brakes.
Correction.........Sorry.....it was not Hacker that inquired about a set.
If anyone else has a set of the Xschop upgrade,it would be nice to hear some feedback.
I've got the Wilwood/Xschop kit installed on Just Peachy. (3,083 lbs, 1/2 tank fuel) Was running in group 1 (very fast) a few years back at 3rd Coast....no problems with fade. (MY1980). T
He threatened me with physical harm "You better hope we never meet in person, I'll kick the **** out of you", followed by a constant barrage of swear words about me and what I know. Then he hung up. (I recorded the conversation, if anyone wants to hear it.)
No discussion brakes and brake pads....nothing regarding anything technical, just like his personal attacks here.
That's what this guy is about.
He made a really poor choice in "matching" the performance potential of his "Pro Touring" car with his brakes. (Now wants to sell it.....with 300 miles on it, after 1000 hours of work. Something went wrong, obviously.)
He threatened me with physical harm "You better hope we never meet in person, I'll kick the **** out of you", followed by a constant barrage of swear words about me and what I know. Then he hung up. (I recorded the conversation, if anyone wants to hear it.)
No discussion brakes and brake pads....nothing regarding anything technical, just like his personal attacks here.
That's what this guy is about.
He made a really poor choice in "matching" the performance potential of his "Pro Touring" car with his brakes. (Now wants to sell it.....with 300 miles on it, after 1000 hours of work. Something went wrong, obviously.)
