Otto Mechanic

Well, we all had the full Monty in the '70s, it didn't much matter where we were. For my part it was San Jose, I guess you were in LA. Pretty much the same problem though, explosive growth and a prevailing onshore wind.

Thankfully it's gone now and has been for nearly 50 years (that would be half a century. A long time. Longer than most people born in 1900 lived). It isn't getting worse, has admitedly and demonstrably gotten better, and there appears to be no reason to make regulations more stringent, even after the population of California has tripled over that time. Ridley Scott's vision of Los Angeles didn't materialize? We won. Life is good. Time to beat our swords into plowshares.

So these ongoing attempts to make regulations stricter seem like a waste of money and a general irritation that has no real purpose? Like so many recent social initiatives, wasted motion; running around in circles and banging pots together. Pointless?

Let's declare victory Doc. We deserve it? For us, the war is over. If California is the canary in the coal mine, we're still breathing. We're fine metabolically, but we're suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder; we've gone a little bit crazy and we needs some help. Soon.

docmirror

I'm borderline anarchist, and yes - we did win. But we can win some more. Here's where things are going vis-a-vis SoCal smog, and the CA coast in general. Every day there are hundreds of container ships coming into Long Beach and of course bay area, and Sandy Eggo ports. Every day they sit with engines running, and dump a few tons of CO and NOx into the air. Since they come from way outside of CA jurisdiction, one would think there's nothing we can do about it. But - there is. Through state regulations there is a clamp down on running the engine in port, and also soon to be emission requirements for offloading at the 5 commercial ports in the state. Intl carriers are screaming about it, but then one gets to think about a many thousand ton ship, with a few thousand HP 2 stroke diesel just blowing hot smog for hours on end. Also, comm diesel trucks are coming in for some oversight, and buses have already been tackled.

At the other end of the scale are some of the more stupid regs, like the penalty for a 5 gal dump can of gas. Use a dump fuel can, pay $10,000 fine. There is a method to the madness, but I'll say there are cases that just boggle the mind. For some examples go here: https://calepa.ca.gov/enforcement/en...and-judgments/ . Trust me or read it that the CA EPA takes no prisoners. Here's a snip from a recent case:

" Failing to implement, maintain, or submit to the responsible CUPA, a complete 10 hazardous materials business plan for each of the Facilities, in violation of Health and Safety Code 11 sections 25505, 25507, and 25508, and California Code of Regulations, title 19, section 2650; 12 4.3.t. Failing to implement and maintain a business-emergency plan for emergency response 13 to a release or threatened release of hazardous materials, in violation of Health and Safety Code 14 sections 25505 and 25507; 15 4.3.u. Failing to implement, maintain, and comply with an employee-training program on 16 I hazardous materials meeting the requirements of Health and Safety Code section 25505(a)(4), and 17 California Code of Regulations, title 19, section 2659;"

Note that this is all make-work and has nothing to do with the actual release or potential release of any kind of hazmat. It's all paperwork violations. But - they are getting their pound of flesh, and it's now the cost of doing biz in CA. This defendant got off cheap. Half mil $ fine, and a bunch more papers to be filed, and make-work for managers. I would opine that the amount of smog generated by investigating, and bringing this case to judgement actually cost more hazmat and enviro damage than it prevents. But - it's only an opinion. One more thing before I go, if this kind of car, truck, boat, and comm idiocy were confined to the good folk of CA(I was one of them for a long time), I wouldn't have a problem. But - ALL of the companies that CA gets its pound of flesh from are national chains, and the lawyers fees, fines, and idiotic make-work represent a real dollar cost to those companies, which is allocated to the corp as a whole, and has to be accounted for with higher prices for EVERYONE, including other states. If this defendant just closed up shop in CA, and dropped all their CA specific requirements, the cost of my broccoli would likely go down half a penny per pound, and we would be environmentally better off, not going through the whole hoop-jumping out there.

I carry the broccoli home in my 928. (required content)

Otto Mechanic

I recently read a report that the top 7 container ships in operation today produce more atmospheric pollution annually than all cars in existence worldwide. Any substance to that?

V2Rocket

BC - smog tech doesn't need to know jack **** about the car.
they have a handy-dandy reference book broken down by every year make and model, ever, and it's got a table showing what kind of emissions equipment are on that year/engine.
they look at the book, they trace the hoses on the vac diagram, check for a cat, skip the gas cap on a 928, and they can test.
maybe tell em they can charge you a little more than their $50 OBD2 rate for the extra time.

Chalkboss

Some smog techs don't know jack siht even when they have the hood open and book laid out before them. Took my 87 in to get it smogged in CO, forgot I had removed the air pump belt due to siezed bearing until I pulled into the inspection line. Figured what the heck I'll do it anyways.

Watched two guys ponder over the engine and look around for about 10 minutes, some head shaking. They put it on the rollers and put it through an extended test. I'm sitting there thinking I'm going to get called into the principal's office (lived previously in CA). Guy rolls up and says this thing runs cleaner than some new cars. I smile and say thank you and bolt out of there.

I also read a study on the cargo ships. Cars are a less than a drop in the bucket on emissions compared to the largely unregulated ships idling away.

dr bob

That "book" is not correct for my '89 model. I had the good fortune of finding a smog guy fairly local to me who knew the cars and just check-boxed through the stuff they don't actually have. Once a relationship was established, the checks were very routine. "Changed anything since last time?" was pretty much the complete visual. He hired a guy, and coached him through the car and the testing needed. I helped him translate the vacuum diagram on the hood to all the actual lines and components, since the diagram is rotated 180º from the view from the front.

Eventually they'll require a fuel system vapor test since there's no gas cap seal to inspect. There never will be a check-engine light, in spite of there being a place for a bulb behind the cluster. It's virtually impossible to confirm the cats and the air pump piping with the trays installed, unless you lift the car. Where's the vapor cannister? I don't see it... At least the book doesn't claim there's an OBD-II port.

New cars report their own malfunctions, and sniff for excess tailpipe CO themselves. They depend on the coil-on-plug built-in diagnostics to say if a plug isn't firing well. At some point in the life of the car, some statistical threshold will be crossed and they will sniff the tailpipes while the car is sitting on the rollers. Looking for NOx and HC, the telltales of deterioration in combustion quality.


This will all go the way of the wind soon. Electric buggies don't spew tailpipe gasses unless a passenger farts. For a while, emissions will be centralized at power plants. As we get more wind and solar, the focus will move towards what's spewed from the battery factories and what to do with the worn-out packs. Any combustion-based range extensions will be hydrogen-based, and the junk from that will be localized again as long as the hydrogen comes fractioned from hydrocarbons.


Be ready!

Otto Mechanic

Mostly I'd agree here, but I'll maintain there's a technology disconnect somewhere between "emisions will be centralized..." and "combustion-based range extensions will be hydrogen-based..."

The disconnect concerns base load power generation, which can't be solar, wind or petrochemical in this universe; it has to be nuclear.

The only efficient way we'll be able to generate electricity to charge our capacitors (not batteries, capacitors) and also produce hydrogen as a bi-product is nuclear. Maybe, someday, (certainly within the next 50 years ) it could be thermonuclear, but I've already held my breath for 60 years and I'm not inclined to keep doing it. So there.

The Forgotten On

I'm hoping one day politicians will let there be a standard reactor, a breeder reactor, and a refining centrifuge plant on the same campus. No more waste or possible accidents transporting spent fuel.

It would be the be all end all of power generation with our existing forms of power generation but this is a topic for OT

I'm just hoping that California passes laws on the emissions of ships that dock in our harbors. It would force practically every manufacturer to make their ships cleaner and actually have a sizable impact on pollution like cats did back in the 70s.

Speedtoys

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...206353271.html

alex70

Howdy. Smogs can be tough. I was going to ask what region in Ca you are in, but then I see a post for San Diego. Probably not the most convenient since they are in South Orange County, but if you are interested I can call my prior mechanic on Monday and ask what smog shop he used for my '87. At least you can get the cats hot on the way up to the shop.

If interested Pm me and I'll send their contact info over to you.

dr bob

The bulk of the dispatchable capacity in the state is still fossil, natural gas at this point. The other "renewables" like geothermal, solar and wind tend to be run at whatever their capacity is at the moment. Not a lot of nuclear remaining, and what is running is there because it costs more to shut them down than it does to run them. Plus those owning utilities can't so easily shift the financial liability to ratepayers from shareholders. I'm just waiting for original San Onofre backers (ratepayers) to remember that the units were shut down well before end-of-life. A couple utilities and a city would be bankrupted.


This is where wind and solar can shine. Charging vehicle storage units or making hydrogen is not particularly schedule-sensitive. From the T&D side, manage those less-sensitivedemands dynamically so that more sensitive loads don't go brown.

Otto Mechanic

Well, I was thinking more of Diablo Canyon (just down the road from me), they're producing de-salinated water and there's been talk of hydrogen too. Maybe that's not the best example since that's an old design and not too safe. PG&E would probably be better off de-commissioning and replacing it with a low pressure design I think. Instead they're just going to take it off line in a couple of years with no plan to replace it. Somehow I expect that approach to be stopped before they're allowed to turn off the lights in LA, but CA has been known to do some pretty crazy stuff in the past when it comes to public utilities so I could, once again, be taken by surprise.

Solar works fine for cracking water, matter of fact I was a big fan of that back when I was in HS. I designed a hydrogen powered RV I planned to build so I could tour cross country with my band of merry pranksters, pulling up to lakes and streams to re-fuel using my "easily deployed" solar array! You'll have to forgive me, I was 16 at the time. But I was convinced I could make it work as long as I didn't have to be anywhere on a schedule... (later that year I landed my first paying job and the harsher aspects of reality set in. I never have built that RV).

Speedtoys

Ya...uh huh..

https://www.wsj.com/articles/califor...ity-1536000502

BC

I am in Mira Mesa - San Diego. Its back on the street, but in risk whatever meter-maid shenanigans may be on the ego of whomever comes by.

It has no headlights right now, but this was not the issue stopping people. It was the age, and "What is a Porsche 928". Interestingly the thing is stock with all vac lines and air box in place.

My OP was not about this car only. This has been an issue for years here, and its inconguous because of the reasons stated above with industry, but also the smoking cars that come up from Mexico. I don't want to have to go the full route of registering these cars elsewhere but I will if I have to.

South Orange is fine as I do work in Irvine (68 miles each way to work), though this car is on this side of being okay to drive that far, simply from a "non interior" and "Gee, whats that whining noise from the rear end" perspective. Its been sitting outside after being painted in primer for over a year.

docmirror

Ok, a couple of catch-up things to mention. Lunchbox nuclear fission reactors. Not really lunchbox size, but fit in an engine bay size is eminently doable. When back at Gulf-Gen Atomic long ago and far away(right up the coast from Sandy Eggo) we had a nice little 2 ton unit that would put out around 23KW, or a bit more if pushed. Size/weight has surely come down since I left the biz back in 85-ish. It - could - be - done. But, no thank you. I do not want more commercial fissile material out there, and moving cars/trucks/buses/trains around with fission would give me the *******. The real problem is the waste product from re-fueling. Nasty, messy, long term isotopes decaying out back of the corner Texaco. Negative ghostrider. [edit to add; Here's an interesting link to the nuclear engines designed to power an airplane. Yes, we did investigate the potential for a nuclear bomber that could stay aloft for weeks at a time(like a nuke sub which stays down for weeks also) on a nuclear powered engine: http://mentalfloss.com/article/53184...lear-airplanes , fascinating stuff, a bit before my time though ]

San Onofre. Units 2 and 3(the bigger ones with the containment domes) were deactivated due to completely unrelated cooling exchanger issues. Unit 2 is decently built, but unit 3 is an outstanding reactor. Runs very hot, very linear and very uniform. Few hot spots, and a nice power gen curve. Unit 3 should be restarted, but I doubt it ever will go on again. Without getting into the details, once a reactor grid goes cold for a while, it's pretty hard to get it running smooth again. Some of the framing can take a set, and get infused with particles that make it too brittle. Of course, the whole thing, including the moderator Ax Man control rods and assembly can be replaced, but it's maybe pretty costly. Hard to know unless a complete exam of the pressure vessel and framing is done.

Diablo canyon has never run right. They go up and down more than a 30 dollar *****. It wasn't set up right from the beginning and has had all the common and some of the uncommon issues that plague PRW multi-loop reactors. the worst of which is thermal coupling where the reactor is out of sync thermally with the closed loop of the cooling system. This has required several weird shutdown scenarios, and a couple of emergency steam dumps(non-primary). Plus it's sitting on bad faults, and it's had more than its share of electrical delivery issues like transformer pops, etc. I would let it shut down on schedule, and hope for the best. Diablo canyon was the post-post-Three Mile Island design that was done by mostly QA people, rather than qualified nuke engineers.

The future of fusion is a dead end. Fission occurs naturally on Earth. Some small percent of all U ore on the planet is fissile. All we are doing with fission is harnessing and controlling this natural power. The only place we find fusion is in the center of our Solar system. I seriously doubt that within 20 of my lifetimes, with the smartest group on Earth working on the problem that there will ever be a fusion sustained reaction with a positive power output. I know, I know, some outfit has said they have a plus beta for a few microseconds somewhere. Well, they can't do their calormitry right, which is a common problem with testers who are tied to govt or private funding. Gen Atomic has pretty much given up after 25-ish years of trying. They aren't much closer today, and there are no paradigm changing designs, or ideas out there that will contain the reaction for more than a few microseconds, for a few millimeters of fuel. Sorry.

Glad the car is back on the road(somewhat). Take it to a referee station and they will help with long term smog concerns. There used to be a referee station in Clairmont area, not sure if it's still there. Been a while since I had to do anything with them.