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It pulls on the GT4 caymens, which are basically old cup cars , which handle great.... power the same as the old cup cars. (like mark a's) the black and yellow one, and that red and black one are pretty special. the red one had the record on the track, and has done 1:23s at willow springs (faster than andersons best there). the other GT4s I had a little power advantage over and was ahead of most of them initially, but when my old tires gave up grip, I was toast. I thought I could get another weekend out of my set, but they are done. but power wise the car was good for my class (GT3 POC)
Originally Posted by IcemanG17
Why can’t you pull a cayman gt4 clubsport? 385hp..2860lbs......so about same weight as yours with slightly less whp and 100ftlbs less torque....
What size injectors are fitted? The size specified in the input data array looks suspiciously small considering they are still firing per stoke at 7560 rpm. I suspect my 30lb injectors might be struggling
The injectors are....big.
Because the MAF, on this car sits in a much larger I.D. pipe, it "lies".
There's some tuning tricks in Sharktuner that can be done when portions of the "map" get maxed out, one of which is lying to it about injector sizing.
There's no question that a different injection management system would give us some additional definition/control.. The tuning ability of the stock Bosch system gets pretty "broad" at the upper rpms. I used a different system on Andy"s engine, to get more of this definition at higher rpms.
With a different injection management system, there are always trade offs....and one of the tradeoffs is all the other maps that are involved for starting, running at different temperatures, injection quantity on acceleration....the list of required adjustments goes on and on. Suffice it to say that a full throttle map for maximum power, on a dyno, (which never holds any tuned cell for more than a portion of a second) is completely useless in real life. Even the full throttle map will be completely different when the engine is in the car. What the "proponents" of aftermarket ECUs don't tell you is that you can damn near wear a race engine out, tuning it, in the car. Before Jake sold his car, I listened everyday to how poorly it started and ran...and he had been tuning on it, for years.
The only benefit of the stock Bosch system is that all the "other" maps and information to make engines run are extremely well "dialed in" and just take minor tweeks to make everything work. The "tradeoff" is full throttle resolution.
The only benefit of the stock Bosch system is that all the "other" maps and information to make engines run are extremely well "dialed in" and just take minor tweeks to make everything work. The "tradeoff" is full throttle resolution.
And sometimes you need to "lie" to it.
And if you use a proper engine management system like AEM Infintiy or electromotive you can dial in every actual parameter and not have to lie to it like lesser systems like Sharktuner or even ones like Megasquirt.
I have AEM Infinity and Electromotive on 3 cars. I also have a 3.2 short stroke running Megasquirt, and it's an absolute joke how you have to fudge every parameter on Megasquirt while with AEM you get maximum real tunability. Which is why Megasquirt costs 1K and AEM costs many times that.
A race car lives its whole life at full throttle. I will give you that Joe's car is ancient, but if you were building that same car today and NOT using something like AEM, I would really question how much you care about the investment in the motor.
Because the MAF, on this car sits in a much larger I.D. pipe, it "lies".
There's some tuning tricks in Sharktuner that can be done when portions of the "map" get maxed out, one of which is lying to it about injector sizing.
And sometimes you need to "lie" to it.
.
Not too surprised- have done that myself on a lesser scale when I fitted my current injectors.
It will be interesting to see what condition the combustion chamber is in should you choose to share such. I rather suspect that will appear somewhat shot blasted as well..
I agree that those plugs show signs of pretty serious detonation.
I also agree with Catorce about MS. It really is a base entry system. Pretty much everything out there now is better. The repeatability of MS is terrible.
I’ve used VEMS and it’s much more reliable but again it’s not in the same league as the newer systems where you can easily spend $10k on just the computer.
And if you use a proper engine management system like AEM Infintiy or electromotive you can dial in every actual parameter and not have to lie to it like lesser systems like Sharktuner or even ones like Megasquirt.
I have AEM Infinity and Electromotive on 3 cars. I also have a 3.2 short stroke running Megasquirt, and it's an absolute joke how you have to fudge every parameter on Megasquirt while with AEM you get maximum real tunability. Which is why Megasquirt costs 1K and AEM costs many times that.
A race car lives its whole life at full throttle. I will give you that Joe's car is ancient, but if you were building that same car today and NOT using something like AEM, I would really question how much you care about the investment in the motor.
As you know, I'm using the stock ECU fuel and spark... no mods but a brute force alteration of fuel pressure to match the over sized injectors recommended for the build. (same system stock 5 liter , 335rwhp, 70psi/ 19llb inject, and stroker, 375rwhp, 30llb injector 44psi) in the end, I'm at 12:1, maybe a little fatter at times depending on the day. (I dyno about 2x a year, every year and the results are the same regardless of dynos, so is the fuel air , as I usually do a run in winter (cold) and summer (hot).
what would I gain by the MS or the AEM system. is it just better control of fuel air so that HP is optimized. after all, as you say, the race car lives at Full throttle. I would think if you get the fuel near 12:1, I don't see how you can get much gains by optimizing in a narrow range of operation 5000rpm to 6500rpm. just because I don't see it, doesn't mean its not there, and that's why question. also, what gains are on the spark side? protection, or power optimization by , I suspect , pulling out spark advance in the higher RPM?
was Mark A's ecu stock? as I heard, he did try the shark tuner and then went back to stock. I guess with joe, obviously, it was shark tuned as Greg found settings on the ECU showing things like redline settings.
RACE 2 video from the weekend: After Joe and Mark had left and cars had blown up, my girlfriend had flown home.. I was feeling luckly that the car had survived that far, I wasn't that motivated ................but raced anyway, dropped a coil wire that ended the race at about 3/4 the way through. limped back after parking on the infield, put it on the trailer and drove home. found the coil wire problem after talking to mark A on the way home... reached down to feel for the coil wire at the distrib..........and it wasn't here. problem solved. good trip, fun races, car in one piece! now , setting sights for the National champ RUNOFFS in GT2 in OCT at INFINION and saving up for a new set of tires for the occasion!
Shark tuning just adjusts certain limits of how the Bosch ecu works...... like the rpm limit doc posted earlier....no stock LH 928 will rev past 6600 or 6800 (gt)...I’m not sure what the rpm limit is for euro s Lh.... ultimately it’s still the 30+ year old technology.... it was state of the art back then, even can run a map vs maf..very hi tech for mid 80’s. However modern systems can do much more and faster....my old m3 (2008) used spark plugs as knock sensors on each cylinder.... 12-1 CR 4L v8 that spun to 8400 on street gas..that is known for being hard on rod bearings...hmmm
this is why modern engines can run 13-1 compression on crap *** 91 octane....like my ND miata does...other than variable valve timing, which does matter, it’s the power of he ecu to control things super fast that keeps modern high compression engines alive... look at the hp/L and torque/L of modern NA engines....far better than any 928... 375whp at 6.4L is 58.5/hpL. Not impressive. My bone stock miata dyno’s at 143whp on 2L. 22% better from modern tech.....even Fans engine at 518whp/6.4L is 81hp/L. Fully built race engine.....several ND miata dyno at 180whp with tuning and bolt on...90hp/L on a mass produced engine that is used in many other platforms....far from a built race engine
Shark tuning just adjusts certain limits of how the Bosch ecu works...... like the rpm limit doc posted earlier....no stock LH 928 will rev past 6600 or 6800 (gt)...I’m not sure what the rpm limit is for euro s Lh.... ultimately it’s still the 30+ year old technology.... it was state of the art back then, even can run a map vs maf..very hi tech for mid 80’s. However modern systems can do much more and faster....my old m3 (2008) used spark plugs as knock sensors on each cylinder.... 12-1 CR 4L v8 that spun to 8400 on street gas..that is known for being hard on rod bearings...hmmm
this is why modern engines can run 13-1 compression on crap *** 91 octane....like my ND miata does...other than variable valve timing, which does matter, it’s the power of he ecu to control things super fast that keeps modern high compression engines alive... look at the hp/L and torque/L of modern NA engines....far better than any 928... 375whp at 6.4L is 58.5/hpL. Not impressive. My bone stock miata dyno’s at 143whp on 2L. 22% better from modern tech.....even Fans engine at 518whp/6.4L is 81hp/L. Fully built race engine.....several ND miata dyno at 180whp with tuning and bolt on...90hp/L on a mass produced engine that is used in many other platforms....far from a built race engine
again, what does it buy you? I think you are right, it comes down to the HP/liter and if you compare with BMWs of 1995, making 290rwhp out of a 3.2 liter at 11:1 compression (stock ecu) it seems that the stock stuff should be good enough for engines under 90hp per liter.
and you mention RPM... this this is a problem, then why does the AM vantage with a same stroke as the strokers and a small bore, reve up to 7700rpm all day long, as well as the 3.2 liter bmws with small bores and fairly long strokes spinning to 8500rpm with no issues? both of these had strokes from 89 to 91mm. (very close to the strokers we use in the 928) but these BMWs and Vantages all had much smaller diameter pistons (in the 90mm range).. so , how does a 91mm stroke survive with stock stuff, to 7700rpm or even 8500rpm, vs a bottom end 928 stroker that is made from jewelry, and JEpistons, corillo rods and modex cranks?? heck, even a GTS crank has a lower stroke than these cars.
I guess, it seems like its got to be detonation, correct? (or part failure)
And if you use a proper engine management system like AEM Infintiy or electromotive you can dial in every actual parameter and not have to lie to it like lesser systems like Sharktuner or even ones like Megasquirt.
I have AEM Infinity and Electromotive on 3 cars. I also have a 3.2 short stroke running Megasquirt, and it's an absolute joke how you have to fudge every parameter on Megasquirt while with AEM you get maximum real tunability. Which is why Megasquirt costs 1K and AEM costs many times that.
A race car lives its whole life at full throttle. I will give you that Joe's car is ancient, but if you were building that same car today and NOT using something like AEM, I would really question how much you care about the investment in the motor.
Some people operate with different budgets....
This engine still had the same oil and oil filter that I installed when the engine was assembled....over 8 years ago.
The car sat for over 2 years with the same fuel in it...and that got drained, but the fuel filter didn't get changed, much less the strainer in the fuel cell.
I get in 928's that have been sitting for two years and frequently we have to have the injectors cleaned....why would this engine be any different?
The engine, which was tuned 8 years ago on 100 octane fuel, then goes to the track and is fed 25% 100 octane race fuel and 75% 91 octane street ****.
Joseph's 991 Cup Car engine has less compression than this engine had....would he pour in 25% 100 octane and 75% street **** into that car?
Why not....if it's good enough for a 928 race engine, why isn't it good for a 991 Cup Car Engine?
......Oh, that's somehow different?
And what do you suppose Porsche Motorsports would say, when they got that broken Cup Car engine back? (It would break, with that fuel mixture.)
Parts failure????
This 928 blew a 5+ year old used front race tire (that was obtained from another team with zero history) at 150+ mph a few laps before the engine expired....
Some people operate with different budgets.....
and I get damn tired of being tossed under the bus.
As you know, I'm using the stock ECU fuel and spark... no mods but a brute force alteration of fuel pressure to match the over sized injectors recommended for the build. (same system stock 5 liter , 335rwhp, 70psi/ 19llb inject, and stroker, 375rwhp, 30llb injector 44psi) in the end, I'm at 12:1, maybe a little fatter at times depending on the day. (I dyno about 2x a year, every year and the results are the same regardless of dynos, so is the fuel air , as I usually do a run in winter (cold) and summer (hot).
what would I gain by the MS or the AEM system. is it just better control of fuel air so that HP is optimized. after all, as you say, the race car lives at Full throttle. I would think if you get the fuel near 12:1, I don't see how you can get much gains by optimizing in a narrow range of operation 5000rpm to 6500rpm. just because I don't see it, doesn't mean its not there, and that's why question. also, what gains are on the spark side? protection, or power optimization by , I suspect , pulling out spark advance in the higher RPM?
was Mark A's ecu stock? as I heard, he did try the shark tuner and then went back to stock. I guess with joe, obviously, it was shark tuned as Greg found settings on the ECU showing things like redline settings.
Obviously, you have more information about this failure than I do. I built the engine and have the car here....yet I don't have a picture, nor the pieces of the broken rod....but you do.
And you seem to magically know what connecting rods were in Mark's engine, before the rods that were in it when one broke (you don't have a clue and are completely incorrect....it had Carrillo "A" rods that I removed on my own $$$, because I was afraid they were too weak for the task.)
And you can tell how many rpm's an engine is turning by listening to a recording. (I hear that NBC is looking for an "expert" like you for track analysis at Indy....to get rid of all that troublesome telemetry that they run on those cars.....)
Certainly, with your knowledge, you must know exactly what tune was Mark's engine....and Joseph's....and every other car that leaves here.
Like I've been saying, there's absolutely no reason for you to be here, except to try to stir ****....
Greg, yes, you built the engine, but have the pictures of the broken rods that came out of this broken engine, so it Is not magic. they are not the same as the rods you said to be I my car.
I produced a picture. what rods do YOU think (or know) are in the failed engine FAN or Anderson engine? which are they. do you remember taking the engine apart AFTER the road America intake failure rebuild, to change out the rods? didn't you do this change in both engines? (mark and joe)?
I have no idea besides what was told to me about the "tune" the cars were in. If mark told me his rev limter was set at 6800rpm, I have no reason to doubt him.
and yes, by engine note, you can tell what the RPM is within a few % tell you what.. you send me a dyno video of a 928 engine with sound, and ill tell you the RPM it is at. within a few 100 rpm. I if I don't get it right, ill buy you dinner when I come down next.
If you attempt to match engine notes to RPM, you will see its pretty easy to do. its not anywhere as accurate as telemetry and engine data info, but its pretty good. based on marks lap time, and speeds at different segments on the track, it is painfully clear he was NEVER over 6800rpm anywhere eon the track... our speeds were near 135 at the start finish line, I was in 4th and mark was just shifting to 5th. do the math on the 2.72 vs 2.2 gears to see where and what gear he would have to be in , to be going 7500rpm. it never happened. PLUS, again, the note would be distinctive.
I'm only here to talk about the weekend, my car and the engine failure. so far, what we know now.
1. mark was driving both cars that blew up
2. the rods were different than the original rods that seemed to last quote a few hours
3. both cars blew up after only a few hours of racing
4. both cars seem to have different tunes and ECU control.
5. both cars were run on 50/50 race gas vs pump gas
you are dead wrong about the rods that mark and joe have in their engines now. (both broken) vs the rods I have in my car or what they originally had. can you please address this?
I'm not the engine builder, you are . these should be easy questions to answer or theorize about.
Originally Posted by GregBBRD
Obviously, you have more information about this failure than I do. I built the engine and have the car here....yet I don't have a picture, nor the pieces of the broken rod....but you do.
And you seem to magically know what connecting rods were in Mark's engine, before the rods that were in it when one broke (you don't have a clue and are completely incorrect....it had Carrillo "A" rods that I removed on my own $$$, because I was afraid they were too weak for the task.)
And you can tell how many rpm's an engine is turning by listening to a recording. (I hear that NBC is looking for an "expert" like you for track analysis at Indy....to get rid of all that troublesome telemetry that they run on those cars.....)
Certainly, with your knowledge, you must know exactly what tune was Mark's engine....and Joseph's....and every other car that leaves here.
Like I've been saying, there's absolutely no reason for you to be here, except to try to stir ****....
Mark said he changed the oil . why would it matter if the fuel filter was changed after 2 years if the fuel in the tank was drained.?
do you think the fuel , being that old , strictly in the filter, could be an issue with flow? wouldn't it show signs running? however, you might have more of a point of the injectors could be clogged, but that seems of, especially since the engine ran so smooth. but if one flowed just less enough to cause a stoich condition, sure , that would be a problem. similar to the problem at road America. that's why I use the AFR sensor. any gross issues with fuel air, and the sensor (o2 ) sensor, even as crude as it is, will detect a problem
I guess when you pull the engine apart and see a melted piston top, you will have been right in the assessment.
If not, then what are you going to think is the cause?
I'm asking you greg, not telling you. all I can tell you , is the rods are NOT the same as mine.
Mark
Originally Posted by GregBBRD
Some people operate with different budgets....
This engine still had the same oil and oil filter that I installed when the engine was assembled....over 8 years ago.
The car sat for over 2 years with the same fuel in it...and that got drained, but the fuel filter didn't get changed, much less the strainer in the fuel cell.
I get in 928's that have been sitting for two years and frequently we have to have the injectors cleaned....why would this engine be any different?
The engine, which was tuned 8 years ago on 100 octane fuel, then goes to the track and is fed 25% 100 octane race fuel and 75% 91 octane street ****.
Joseph's 991 Cup Car engine has less compression than this engine had....would he pour in 25% 100 octane and 75% street **** into that car?
Why not....if it's good enough for a 928 race engine, why isn't it good for a 991 Cup Car Engine?
......Oh, that's somehow different?
And what do you suppose Porsche Motorsports would say, when they got that broken Cup Car engine back? (It would break, with that fuel mixture.)
Parts failure????
This 928 blew a 5+ year old used front race tire (that was obtained from another team with zero history) at 150+ mph a few laps before the engine expired....
Some people operate with different budgets.....
and I get damn tired of being tossed under the bus.
Greg, what are the rods that you put in mark and joes car on the final rebuild?
choose one below or none and let us know. which was the one that broke at the last race at Auto Club Speedway in Joes car's engine?
what broke in the latest Fan engine last week
what is in my engine and was in prior Anderson and fan engines.
Last edited by mark kibort; 05-14-2018 at 01:37 PM.
05-12-2018, 04:10 AM
