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Thanks everyone for their input. To summarize the questions the bushings are new, I like the FWD handling, I do understand the difference between handling and grip and body roll. The car definitely oversteers.
I don't have the time right now but yes a wheel alignment is probably part of the problem. I can't trust anybody to do it properly so I'm going to buy the tools to align it myself. And since a NA 944 has the body roll of the Costa Concordia I'll upgrade the sway bars too.
Thanks everyone for their input. To summarize the questions the bushings are new, I like the FWD handling, I do understand the difference between handling and grip and body roll. The car definitely oversteers.
I don't have the time right now but yes a wheel alignment is probably part of the problem. I can't trust anybody to do it properly so I'm going to buy the tools to align it myself. And since a NA 944 has the body roll of the Costa Concordia I'll upgrade the sway bars too.
I wouldn't buy anything yourself apart from petrol and take the car to have a professional 4 wheel alignment, even if it involves travelling miles and a night in a Hotel.
This chassis has a HUGE reputation of handling well, even 40 years after it was released something is out somewhere.
Stiffening and reducing suspension travel is not on your list yet until you find out what's causing the issues.
No rear ARB makes each rear corner fully independent and not connected, a full soft car will roll more but is less likely to lose grip compared to a car with an ARB as it has more travel. Some autocrossers disconnect the ARB's for less resistance and better turn in.
You need all of the example below measuring and changing to factory specs.
It's really not that difficult to do a DIY alignment on these cars, nor are the tools you need terribly expensive. I can get a good alignment to the specs I want with nothing more than some string, a camber gauge, and a couple hours in the garage. The initial cost of the tools was about as much as a proper alignment from a reputable Porsche/VW shop (not a Belle Tire alignment), so it pays for itself after one alignment.
Assuming that spending a couple hours fiddling under a car is an enjoyable activity to you, that is.
4 year old skinny tyres. Tired suspension and probably bushings. Too soft springrates. Who knows what geometry...the list goes on. The Semi trailing arm isn't the best setup in the world but it's way better than the car you describe now. If you spent a few hundred bucks on a pro to set it up it would improve quite a bit. If you spent say $3k on a whole new suspension package, it would leave your Daytona in the dust through the twisties.
Oh...252kph / 156mph applying plenty of steering angle into a long 90 degree sweeper. Wouldn't be doing this with a s**tbox handling car!
I wouldn't buy anything yourself apart from petrol and take the car to have a professional 4 wheel alignment, even if it involves travelling miles and a night in a Hotel.
This chassis has a HUGE reputation of handling well, even 40 years after it was released something is out somewhere.
Stiffening and reducing suspension travel is not on your list yet until you find out what's causing the issues.
No rear ARB makes each rear corner fully independent and not connected, a full soft car will roll more but is less likely to lose grip compared to a car with an ARB as it has more travel. Some autocrossers disconnect the ARB's for less resistance and better turn in.
You need all of the example below measuring and changing to factory specs.
R
I understand everything you're saying and you are correct. Back in my teens and twenties I worked in Chrysler Plymouth dealer as a mechanic and I did performed wheel alignments. I'm 59 years old now. One thing I've learned in life is no one gives a crap about doing anything correctly. No matter how much they promise, say, or tap dance for you, it all about separating you from your money. This goes double in the automotive service business. The Hunter alignment rack that I had the misfortune of using was the biggest piece of garbage that I've seen up to that time. I had a 80 Corvette a few years back. After rebuilding the front and rear suspension I bought it to a highly recommend wheel alignment shop. The equipment looked worse than that Hunter machine I used to use. Each time the guy made a adjustment he would take the car for a road test. He did that 5 times and that was just for the front. He most likely was checking to see if it went straight and the merits of a GMPP 385 fastburn engine. So now you know why I'm hesitant to take it anywhere. Buying a caster/camber bubble guage and doing it in my driveway will come out far better than a UTI graduate using the latest and greatest laser light show, computerized super duper machine.
Now back to the semi trailing suspension. I do feel that the solid rear suspension can provide a higher grip on a smooth road then the semi trailing arm suspension especially if the car has a large amount of body roll. For a sports car or a grand touring car the NA 944 sure rolls alot. If Chrysler could get a low end, FWD, K-car platform to perform like a sports car by simply using a good mix of springs and sway bars, Porsche should have able to do the same and made the 944 blown away anything Chrysler could have come up with especially considering a 944 cost 50% more than a Daytona Turbo Z at the time. The semi trailing arm suspension is almost as much as a compromise as having FWD from a performance standpoint. I just feel Porsche dropped the ball when selecting the spring and sway bar combination.
Last edited by marc abrams; 01-04-2017 at 08:48 AM.
I just feel Porsche dropped the ball when selecting the spring and sway bar combination.
Marc, there are a number of things going on here.
You currently possess a touring chassis configuration of the 944 [soft dampers, soft springs, small front bar, no rear bar]. For those who desired, the factory offered more sporting options with M474 [sport dampers, sport torsions] or M030 [sport(ier) dampers, sport(ier) springs, sport(ier) torsions].
As mentioned, a proper alignment is your first order of business. Your 944 is sitting on 215/60 all-seasons and your Daytona is on what...225/50 GTs? Not a fair comparison...all else being equal, different tires make a huge difference. Your 944 was also fitted with a small front, and no rear, sway. Installing that 24mm/16mm set you have sitting on the shelf will definitely reduce body roll.
Lastly, for simplicity, what is the ground-to-fender lip distance, through the wheel center, front and rear?
Where's Your oversteer occurring ? as soon as your turn and tip in to a corner ? or mid corner or exit?
The best thing I learnt from 10+ years Racing (Continuously) was to get a good balance it's often best to upset the good axle as opposed to looking at and making changes to the axle that's losing grip first.
For example, you could go stiffer front ARB and this should make a difference and begin or eradicate your oversteer.
Factor's also play a part on what shock absorbers and springs and the front ARB size you have? also road or slick tyres? Rim and tyre sizes profiles etc..etc..
I see a few answers here have mentioned the word SOFT a few times, this should help with an issue for oversteer, and I wonder if "Body Roll" is the real characteristic that's happening here and not an actual loss of grip?
R
I had planned on making my own post on this so as not to hijack this thread, but since its pretty related I'll roll with it. Anyway, the oversteer usually occurs from the apex to the track-out, as you're trying to put the power down. When I'm really pushing the car, it always feels like it has a bit of a sideslip angle, and sometimes that 'bit of an angle' gets away from you and the car goes around.
When we got the car, it had a weltmeister (thick, not sure the size) front bar on it which we took off in favor of a (going by memory here) turbo bar? I think the thinking at the time was that the front bar was not matched to the rear bar, and that we wanted the points (remember, this is chumpcar) for some other modification instead. So, we potentially can go bigger on the front bar again as Im pretty sure we still have the weltmeister bar.
Tires are 200 treadwear BFG Rivals, so not slicks, but not really street tires either. Pretty sticky though. 225/25/15.
We are running turbo front struts which have a good amount of damping to them in the front, brand new bilstein shocks in the rear.
I understand everything you're saying and you are correct. Back in my teens and twenties I worked in Chrysler Plymouth dealer as a mechanic and I did performed wheel alignments. I'm 59 years old now. One thing I've learned in life is no one gives a crap about doing anything correctly. No matter how much they promise, say, or tap dance for you, it all about separating you from your money. This goes double in the automotive service business. The Hunter alignment rack that I had the misfortune of using was the biggest piece of garbage that I've seen up to that time. I had a 80 Corvette a few years back. After rebuilding the front and rear suspension I bought it to a highly recommend wheel alignment shop. The equipment looked worse than that Hunter machine I used to use. Each time the guy made a adjustment he would take the car for a road test. He did that 5 times and that was just for the front. He most likely was checking to see if it went straight and the merits of a GMPP 385 fastburn engine. So now you know why I'm hesitant to take it anywhere. Buying a caster/camber bubble guage and doing it in my driveway will come out far better than a UTI graduate using the latest and greatest laser light show, computerized super duper machine.
Now back to the semi trailing suspension. I do feel that the solid rear suspension can provide a higher grip on a smooth road then the semi trailing arm suspension especially if the car has a large amount of body roll. For a sports car or a grand touring car the NA 944 sure rolls alot. If Chrysler could get a low end, FWD, K-car platform to perform like a sports car by simply using a good mix of springs and sway bars, Porsche should have able to do the same and made the 944 blown away anything Chrysler could have come up with especially considering a 944 cost 50% more than a Daytona Turbo Z at the time. The semi trailing arm suspension is almost as much as a compromise as having FWD from a performance standpoint. I just feel Porsche dropped the ball when selecting the spring and sway bar combination.
Yes i agree on the "Milking money automotive trade", but I'm very very lucky looking at your scenerio which has no one near you that's any good or that gives a to$$.
In the Uk we also have many regular garages with general tracking equipment, some with better gear than others, but we also have a reasonable selection of totally dedicated handling and alignment specialists who don;t charge $100 for 20 minutes work with poor equipment, but half a day @ $300 and the results are well worth the money, typically some have a month waiting list.
High quality is making a comeback here in the UK, so many people like you and I are cheesed off with poor service and quality and at last are making the change to spend accordingly, of course there will always be some businesses who try the expensive route and do a crap job, but the word gets quickly around the street and they don't last long.
I've been in business 10 years restoring wheels now for $170+ each, and typically taking 4 days to restore one set. There's a good demand and market for this as many have experienced the roth of places that do a set in a day and charge $250 for four wheels only to find the paint peels off in 6 weeks!
Fit the stiffer bars and do the Geo yourself then, change the wheels to 17's and wide tyres and fit stiffer springs then see if you prefer it but I still can;t understand why the rear is wheel spinning? or sliding other than shot suspension and Rock hard tyres on slippery tarmac!
The rear of this chassis is planted, Understeer is always the prevailing issue.
I have some on my 924 and will be trying a stiffer rear bar and softer front springs to make the balance better
Wow, this could become as much fun as an oil thread
Marc, I've read a lot of books, including everything ever written by Puhn, whom I admire immensely. Currently I'm reading a book about Roland Kussmaul, a Porsche factory driver, development engineer, manager, you name it. As is typical with the lore of Porsche, I come away with immense respect for the intense level of engineering detail that they applied to their projects. Well, 944 sunroof mechanism not so much, but in general really good engineering!
I would not be so quick to throw the 944 rear suspension under the bus. It is actually pretty trick. That diagonal piece that shows in 924ssr27l's photo shows it pretty well. It is a very clever usage of diagonal trailing arms, spring plates, and torsion bars which serve to minimize camber gains under cornering loads. It certainly is a great improvement on the system used in VW bugs and Datsuns.
My track car oversteers pretty readily on a wet track but on a dry track I find it hard to work up the nerve to really upset it. Most oversteer occurs on lower speed corners. And a little oversteer can be very entertaining.
Marc,
While past poor experiences can certainly cause anxiety in the future, alignment stuff has really come a long way.
Different car so apples/oranges, but I dropped my old Outback off at the Subaru dealer yesterday for a 4-wheel laser-computer-gizmo alignment.
They had it done for me in maybe an hour and $90, and gave me the print-out showing before and after figures for all 4 wheels...car feels great now.
You might be able to find a local shop (or even a dealer like I used) who is willing to throw your car up on the rack. If you can give them the alignment specs you want, and a brief overview of the 944 suspension (rear, the front is easy-peasy mac struts) they should be able to work it out for you. It's really not hard to adjust the suspension but you want the fancy equipment to actually measure the adjustments...
Originally Posted by marc abrams
I understand everything you're saying and you are correct. Back in my teens and twenties I worked in Chrysler Plymouth dealer as a mechanic and I did performed wheel alignments. I'm 59 years old now. One thing I've learned in life is no one gives a crap about doing anything correctly. No matter how much they promise, say, or tap dance for you, it all about separating you from your money. This goes double in the automotive service business. The Hunter alignment rack that I had the misfortune of using was the biggest piece of garbage that I've seen up to that time. I had a 80 Corvette a few years back. After rebuilding the front and rear suspension I bought it to a highly recommend wheel alignment shop. The equipment looked worse than that Hunter machine I used to use. Each time the guy made a adjustment he would take the car for a road test. He did that 5 times and that was just for the front. He most likely was checking to see if it went straight and the merits of a GMPP 385 fastburn engine. So now you know why I'm hesitant to take it anywhere. Buying a caster/camber bubble guage and doing it in my driveway will come out far better than a UTI graduate using the latest and greatest laser light show, computerized super duper machine.
You currently possess a touring chassis configuration of the 944 [soft dampers, soft springs, small front bar, no rear bar]. For those who desired, the factory offered more sporting options with M474 [sport dampers, sport torsions] or M030 [sport(ier) dampers, sport(ier) springs, sport(ier) torsions].
As mentioned, a proper alignment is your first order of business. Your 944 is sitting on 215/60 all-seasons and your Daytona is on what...225/50 GTs? Not a fair comparison...all else being equal, different tires make a huge difference. Your 944 was also fitted with a small front, and no rear, sway. Installing that 24mm/16mm set you have sitting on the shelf will definitely reduce body roll.
Lastly, for simplicity, what is the ground-to-fender lip distance, through the wheel center, front and rear?
I agree with the tire part. I'm still on the fence about keeping the car bone stock or starting down that slippery slope that would include 16 wheels.
Wow, this could become as much fun as an oil thread
Marc, I've read a lot of books, including everything ever written by Puhn, whom I admire immensely. Currently I'm reading a book about Roland Kussmaul, a Porsche factory driver, development engineer, manager, you name it. As is typical with the lore of Porsche, I come away with immense respect for the intense level of engineering detail that they applied to their projects. Well, 944 sunroof mechanism not so much, but in general really good engineering!
I would not be so quick to throw the 944 rear suspension under the bus. It is actually pretty trick. That diagonal piece that shows in 924ssr27l's photo shows it pretty well. It is a very clever usage of diagonal trailing arms, spring plates, and torsion bars which serve to minimize camber gains under cornering loads. It certainly is a great improvement on the system used in VW bugs and Datsuns.
My track car oversteers pretty readily on a wet track but on a dry track I find it hard to work up the nerve to really upset it. Most oversteer occurs on lower speed corners. And a little oversteer can be very entertaining.
Can I atlease throw the 944 electrical system under the bus? Lol
Marc, you didn't ask but years ago I mapped the camber curves for the front suspension. There's an article somewhere on my website. I remember being shocked at how minor the camber changes were during normal suspension travel. Again, there are some tricks going on in the control arm layout versus the axis of the strut that achieve some magic. Those guys were pretty sharp.
01-03-2017, 07:19 PM
