suspension upgrades for a street/DE car
05-29-2014, 12:20 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
suspension upgrades for a street/DE car
Looking for some tips and advice etc. on suspension for my street/DE 951.
Lately I've begun to find my car is a bit soft at the track. When I started doing DEs a year ago it didn't matter, but now instructors are telling me it's holding me back. I'd certainly like it to stay a little flatter. The understeer doesn't help either...this car has stock suspension. The shocks are fairly new all round but springs, torsion bars and sway bars are all original.
I could live with the softness a little longer as I still have a lot to learn on the track, however my rear spring plate bushings are completely shot (and likely all the rear bushings) so I am going to have to tear into the rear suspension anyway. Looking at the Elephant Racing tutorial it doesn't look too bad, but even so I only want to do it once...so I need to make a few big decisions before I get started:
* upgrade spring rates or not?
* change ride height?
* rubber or solid bushings?
After a lot of research, I was thinking I could live with a 220lb/27mm or maybe 250lb/28mm t-bar front/rear setup. There is no way to know for sure if I'll like it, but I think I'm willing to give it a shot. I am also considering polybronze and monoball bushings for the rear. Unfortunately I already put new rubber bushings in the front, so it may be pointless, but I'd consider upgrading those too if the rear ends up not being too harsh. I'm really unsure about the ride height. Everything I've read says lowering is bad for the ball joints, but all the aftermarket front springs seem to be for lower than stock ride height.
What do you guys think? I'd appreciate any input/comments on any of these points...thanks!
Lately I've begun to find my car is a bit soft at the track. When I started doing DEs a year ago it didn't matter, but now instructors are telling me it's holding me back. I'd certainly like it to stay a little flatter. The understeer doesn't help either...this car has stock suspension. The shocks are fairly new all round but springs, torsion bars and sway bars are all original.
I could live with the softness a little longer as I still have a lot to learn on the track, however my rear spring plate bushings are completely shot (and likely all the rear bushings) so I am going to have to tear into the rear suspension anyway. Looking at the Elephant Racing tutorial it doesn't look too bad, but even so I only want to do it once...so I need to make a few big decisions before I get started:
* upgrade spring rates or not?
* change ride height?
* rubber or solid bushings?
After a lot of research, I was thinking I could live with a 220lb/27mm or maybe 250lb/28mm t-bar front/rear setup. There is no way to know for sure if I'll like it, but I think I'm willing to give it a shot. I am also considering polybronze and monoball bushings for the rear. Unfortunately I already put new rubber bushings in the front, so it may be pointless, but I'd consider upgrading those too if the rear ends up not being too harsh. I'm really unsure about the ride height. Everything I've read says lowering is bad for the ball joints, but all the aftermarket front springs seem to be for lower than stock ride height.
What do you guys think? I'd appreciate any input/comments on any of these points...thanks!
05-29-2014, 01:46 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
My advice, as always, is get your bushings (front and rear) into good shape, then make decisions on spring rates. If, for instance, your rear spring plate bushings are really shot, then in effect you have a "soft" rear end that causes the front to load up and introduce understeer. I have a tutorial on my website (silver car) about replacing the spring plate bushings. It's not a fun job getting the old rubber ones out but it can be done. Replacement rubber bushings will fit back in better. The solid ones require some fettling.
I have the 944Spec setup from Paragon on my car and it performs well for me. Whatever you do, I would strive to keep the front and rear spring rates roughly the same. My setup is 30 mm rear bar and 350# front springs.
I have the 944Spec setup from Paragon on my car and it performs well for me. Whatever you do, I would strive to keep the front and rear spring rates roughly the same. My setup is 30 mm rear bar and 350# front springs.
05-29-2014, 03:17 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
If this is a street / track car, then I would stick with rubber bushings. That is, unless you don't mind having all that road noise during your street drives. It will also be a bit harsher. I have the Delrin bushings in the rear and they are a pain when they get wet. It washes out the grease and they squeak like mad. The Elephants have a grease fitting to eliminate that problem. My rear rubber bushings were really shot before I replaced them, and you could really tell on the track. Going into the light bulb at the Lightning track at NJMP was an adventure. Now it is much more predictable.
I have 250lb front/ 28mm rear which is a good compromise between street and track use. With the condition of the roads after this winter, it is barely tolerable for me. If you change the springs/torsions then you might as well change the ride height also. That will help with the handling. You will need to get coil overs in the front or lowering springs.
The sway bars will make the most difference. I don't think you mentioned upgrading them. You will be able to dial out the understeer which comes with a stock suspension. I have the Welts - 28mm up front and 22mm in the rear.
If you can't do all these changes at once, then change the bad bushings, change the torsion bars, and lower it while you're in there. You don't want to do that job twice. And do your homework BEFORE re-indexing. Like I said, you only want to do it once.
I have 250lb front/ 28mm rear which is a good compromise between street and track use. With the condition of the roads after this winter, it is barely tolerable for me. If you change the springs/torsions then you might as well change the ride height also. That will help with the handling. You will need to get coil overs in the front or lowering springs.
The sway bars will make the most difference. I don't think you mentioned upgrading them. You will be able to dial out the understeer which comes with a stock suspension. I have the Welts - 28mm up front and 22mm in the rear.
If you can't do all these changes at once, then change the bad bushings, change the torsion bars, and lower it while you're in there. You don't want to do that job twice. And do your homework BEFORE re-indexing. Like I said, you only want to do it once.
05-29-2014, 04:16 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks. I did not mention the sway bars, but I am thinking about those too...it's just not a priority because I can do that any time. Really all I *want* to do right now is the rear bushings...the only reason I'm considering the other changes is so I can avoid doing that work again. But I'm leaning towards Harvey's suggestion to get the bushings sorted first. If I change too much at once, I might go too far, and I won't know which changes are causing the effects I don't like.
The funny thing is, I think the stock suspension is harsh on rough roads especially at the rear. But the rear feels soft - I can push it down very easily, so I think the harshess must be at least partly down to the worn out bushings.
I've read up a lot on this and made my mind up about one thing - it's either rubber bushings, or polybronze and monoballs...I'm definitely not going to use delrin or polyurethane. I don't mind having to grease them regularly since I practially live under my car now anyway, but I don't want squeaking, I don't want them to be difficult to get a good fit and I want them to last.
I drove an 86 911 with solid bushings last year and I thought it was the best handling car I've ever driven on the street so I don't think the bushings alone will be too harsh for me. But it's hard to know for sure...I do like to drive this car on long trips, and minor things that you don't notice on a quick test drive can be a pain in the *** after 5 or 6 hours...especially noises.
The funny thing is, I think the stock suspension is harsh on rough roads especially at the rear. But the rear feels soft - I can push it down very easily, so I think the harshess must be at least partly down to the worn out bushings.
I've read up a lot on this and made my mind up about one thing - it's either rubber bushings, or polybronze and monoballs...I'm definitely not going to use delrin or polyurethane. I don't mind having to grease them regularly since I practially live under my car now anyway, but I don't want squeaking, I don't want them to be difficult to get a good fit and I want them to last.
I drove an 86 911 with solid bushings last year and I thought it was the best handling car I've ever driven on the street so I don't think the bushings alone will be too harsh for me. But it's hard to know for sure...I do like to drive this car on long trips, and minor things that you don't notice on a quick test drive can be a pain in the *** after 5 or 6 hours...especially noises.
05-29-2014, 07:11 PM
#5
I'm sure you've read the excellent suspension upgrade section at clark's garage, but if you haven't it has some great baseline settings.
IMHO the 968 m030 30mm front and 19mm rear are the biggest bang for the buck and have the advantage of not affecting ride quality. I would do this before any torsion bars and springs. The rear is 3 way adjustable. Paragon is selling the fronts again (they had disappeared for a couple years) and the rear can be found any number of places.
What size are your tires?
My setup at present is stock 951s m030, 300 pound front hypercoil, 968 m030 front and rear sway, 225 front 255 rear.
IMHO the 968 m030 30mm front and 19mm rear are the biggest bang for the buck and have the advantage of not affecting ride quality. I would do this before any torsion bars and springs. The rear is 3 way adjustable. Paragon is selling the fronts again (they had disappeared for a couple years) and the rear can be found any number of places.
What size are your tires?
My setup at present is stock 951s m030, 300 pound front hypercoil, 968 m030 front and rear sway, 225 front 255 rear.
05-29-2014, 07:37 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I'm sure you've read the excellent suspension upgrade section at clark's garage, but if you haven't it has some great baseline settings.
IMHO the 968 m030 30mm front and 19mm rear are the biggest bang for the buck and have the advantage of not affecting ride quality. I would do this before any torsion bars and springs. The rear is 3 way adjustable. Paragon is selling the fronts again (they had disappeared for a couple years) and the rear can be found any number of places.
What size are your tires?
My setup at present is stock 951s m030, 300 pound front hypercoil, 968 m030 front and rear sway, 225 front 255 rear.
IMHO the 968 m030 30mm front and 19mm rear are the biggest bang for the buck and have the advantage of not affecting ride quality. I would do this before any torsion bars and springs. The rear is 3 way adjustable. Paragon is selling the fronts again (they had disappeared for a couple years) and the rear can be found any number of places.
What size are your tires?
My setup at present is stock 951s m030, 300 pound front hypercoil, 968 m030 front and rear sway, 225 front 255 rear.
05-29-2014, 08:21 PM
#7
Instructor
My advice, as always, is get your bushings (front and rear) into good shape, then make decisions on spring rates. If, for instance, your rear spring plate bushings are really shot, then in effect you have a "soft" rear end that causes the front to load up and introduce understeer. I have a tutorial on my website (silver car) about replacing the spring plate bushings. It's not a fun job getting the old rubber ones out but it can be done. Replacement rubber bushings will fit back in better. The solid ones require some fettling.
I have the 944Spec setup from Paragon on my car and it performs well for me. Whatever you do, I would strive to keep the front and rear spring rates roughly the same. My setup is 30 mm rear bar and 350# front springs.
I have the 944Spec setup from Paragon on my car and it performs well for me. Whatever you do, I would strive to keep the front and rear spring rates roughly the same. My setup is 30 mm rear bar and 350# front springs.
I also had the 350#/30mm setup on my '86 NA - a little harsh but way fun. I really wished I had upgraded to 30mm/19mm sway bars though. I also had 18's on the car FWIW.
Regards,
___________________
-Robert
'94 968 - Aventurine Green
'86 944 NA - Alpine White, (parted out & gone)
'86 951 - Alpine White (sold)
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05-30-2014, 02:57 AM
#8
Former Vendor
Perhaps some confusion in the thread between the PolyBronze product and the various plastic bushings (delring, polygraphite, polyurethane etc). If I may clarify they are Completely different products with different characteristics.
PolyBronze is a a bronze bearing that offers low friction characteristics, no squeaking , and good ride quality. The plastic bushings are the ones that squeak and cause a harsh ride.
Somewhere in the thread it was said that the good choices are rubber and PolyBronze. Wise words. Rubber works fine and as the factory intended. PolyBronze is the choice for enhanced performance.
PolyBronze is a a bronze bearing that offers low friction characteristics, no squeaking , and good ride quality. The plastic bushings are the ones that squeak and cause a harsh ride.
Somewhere in the thread it was said that the good choices are rubber and PolyBronze. Wise words. Rubber works fine and as the factory intended. PolyBronze is the choice for enhanced performance.
05-30-2014, 10:16 AM
#9
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
anybody with experience with the 25.5mm torsion bars from the turbo S? fine on the street or starting to get hard?
LA has the worst roads in the history of pavement so i want something that isn't harsh. all rubbers will be replaced at the time of the t-bar change of course.
LA has the worst roads in the history of pavement so i want something that isn't harsh. all rubbers will be replaced at the time of the t-bar change of course.
05-30-2014, 10:33 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
anybody with experience with the 25.5mm torsion bars from the turbo S? fine on the street or starting to get hard?
LA has the worst roads in the history of pavement so i want something that isn't harsh. all rubbers will be replaced at the time of the t-bar change of course.
LA has the worst roads in the history of pavement so i want something that isn't harsh. all rubbers will be replaced at the time of the t-bar change of course.
EDIT...oops sorry I see you were talking about torsion bars, my mistake
MHO the 968 m030 30mm front and 19mm rear are the biggest bang for the buck and have the advantage of not affecting ride quality. I would do this before any torsion bars and springs. The rear is 3 way adjustable. Paragon is selling the fronts again (they had disappeared for a couple years) and the rear can be found any number of places
05-30-2014, 11:59 AM
#11
Hi Divil, no I don't think so. I had the understeer as well (all do). You are three way adjustable in the back. I have the middle (stock setting) and it has been excellent so far. Need to track it before I dial anything else in. I would keep the set together or you could get a lot more oversteer than anticipated.
05-30-2014, 12:53 PM
#12
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John, you are on the right track. I would go with a slightly larger torsion bar and front spring rate, coupled with new sway bars (whether they be used M030 as they are not available new anymore, or the bars from lindsey racing). Replace any bushings you come across while in there. Lower the car slightly while you are in there (maybe an inch).
Quality of ride on the street and DE performance are obviously two opposite spectrums. Chuck at elephant racing or jason at Paragon both can guide you into what rates would work best for your situation. It is hard to build a car that is completely badass for the track, without killing the enjoyability around town or especially for long trips.
Or do what I did.....build the 944 into a track beast and buy a 911 for the street It's just money right?
Quality of ride on the street and DE performance are obviously two opposite spectrums. Chuck at elephant racing or jason at Paragon both can guide you into what rates would work best for your situation. It is hard to build a car that is completely badass for the track, without killing the enjoyability around town or especially for long trips.
Or do what I did.....build the 944 into a track beast and buy a 911 for the street
It's just money right?
05-30-2014, 03:45 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
John, you are on the right track. I would go with a slightly larger torsion bar and front spring rate, coupled with new sway bars (whether they be used M030 as they are not available new anymore, or the bars from lindsey racing). Replace any bushings you come across while in there. Lower the car slightly while you are in there (maybe an inch).
Quality of ride on the street and DE performance are obviously two opposite spectrums. Chuck at elephant racing or jason at Paragon both can guide you into what rates would work best for your situation. It is hard to build a car that is completely badass for the track, without killing the enjoyability around town or especially for long trips.
Or do what I did.....build the 944 into a track beast and buy a 911 for the street It's just money right?
Quality of ride on the street and DE performance are obviously two opposite spectrums. Chuck at elephant racing or jason at Paragon both can guide you into what rates would work best for your situation. It is hard to build a car that is completely badass for the track, without killing the enjoyability around town or especially for long trips.
Or do what I did.....build the 944 into a track beast and buy a 911 for the street
It's just money right?Congrats on the chump car win BTW!
05-30-2014, 07:39 PM
#14
John, you are on the right track. I would go with a slightly larger torsion bar and front spring rate, coupled with new sway bars (whether they be used M030 as they are not available new anymore, or the bars from lindsey racing). Replace any bushings you come across while in there. Lower the car slightly while you are in there (maybe an inch).
Quality of ride on the street and DE performance are obviously two opposite spectrums. Chuck at elephant racing or jason at Paragon both can guide you into what rates would work best for your situation. It is hard to build a car that is completely badass for the track, without killing the enjoyability around town or especially for long trips.
Or do what I did.....build the 944 into a track beast and buy a 911 for the street It's just money right?
Quality of ride on the street and DE performance are obviously two opposite spectrums. Chuck at elephant racing or jason at Paragon both can guide you into what rates would work best for your situation. It is hard to build a car that is completely badass for the track, without killing the enjoyability around town or especially for long trips.
Or do what I did.....build the 944 into a track beast and buy a 911 for the street
It's just money right?Rear 968 can be had oem new ( I bought mine from porsche dealer two weeks ago. They meet/beat online prices). Paragon website is showing new oem 30mm fronts as being in stock again. Good point above on rear as lindsey had a 5 way adjustable for the rear which gives you more options if desired. They also have some kind of m035 package they put together.
Good luck!
05-31-2014, 04:24 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Compared to stock cars, I've got slightly less lift/squat in the rear under decel/accel, as expected. Tampa roads aren't much better than LA roads...I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Last weekend, I rode shotgun in Doug's S2 with 350 lb coils in front and 30mm torsions in back. I thought his car would ride like a box truck but was pleasantly surprised...his set up was certainly compliant enough for Maryland's country roads. I would need more seat time to determine if it would be acceptable as a DD.
BTW, weren't you talking about replacing your dampers a while back? What did you end up going with?