choosing the right Porsche 944 for fun, daily-driving, or hard-core "restore..."
01-25-2011, 02:26 PM
#106
Nordschleife Master
2nd paid north of 10K and 5K later still has a basket case..
I am trying to work with both to get em sorted out...
01-25-2011, 02:34 PM
#107
I'll just chime in here. I pulled my S motor out to drop in a turbo. My idea is that I'll just completely refresh the motor with new everything out of the car. Now, this isn't cheap by any reason of a doubt.
Let's see.
Machine Shop Stuff
Bore, Sleeve, Hone all cylinders - $1300
Complete Valve Job /w new guides and springs - $800
Resurface and lighten flywheel - $150
Balance assembly - $100
Welding Oil Pan Baffle Door - $50
Maintenance Access
3 Piece Crossmember - $300
3 Piece Exhaust Crossover Pipe - $200
(Makes it a 3 hour job to do rod bearings instead of 12! Now I won't put it off again!)
Turbo Rebuild - $300
Injector Rebuild - $90
New PP, 930 Disc, TOB, Pilot Bearing - $700
Complete Engine Rebuild Kit (Bearings, Gaskets, etc) - $1100
Water Pump - $300
Timing Belt Kit - $200
A/C Delete Bracket - $100
Slave Cylinder - $80
I'm going for ultimate reliability so, it makes sense to do EVERYTHING now. However, it ISN'T cheap.
Let's see.
Machine Shop Stuff
Bore, Sleeve, Hone all cylinders - $1300
Complete Valve Job /w new guides and springs - $800
Resurface and lighten flywheel - $150
Balance assembly - $100
Welding Oil Pan Baffle Door - $50
Maintenance Access
3 Piece Crossmember - $300
3 Piece Exhaust Crossover Pipe - $200
(Makes it a 3 hour job to do rod bearings instead of 12! Now I won't put it off again!)
Turbo Rebuild - $300
Injector Rebuild - $90
New PP, 930 Disc, TOB, Pilot Bearing - $700
Complete Engine Rebuild Kit (Bearings, Gaskets, etc) - $1100
Water Pump - $300
Timing Belt Kit - $200
A/C Delete Bracket - $100
Slave Cylinder - $80
I'm going for ultimate reliability so, it makes sense to do EVERYTHING now. However, it ISN'T cheap.
01-25-2011, 02:42 PM
#108
Rennlist Member
Man...I really didnt what it to come off like that. I'm also pseudo-restoring it....which adds a lot of frivolous expenses. They car has only stranded me once and that was in November. The head gasket went....
The only way, IMO, to handle 25 year old Porsche ownership is:
#1. Pay cash for it...
#2. Treat repairs as a car payment for about 3 years @ $200 per month
#3. Keep $1500 in a Porsche bank account
The only way, IMO, to handle 25 year old Porsche ownership is:
#1. Pay cash for it...
#2. Treat repairs as a car payment for about 3 years @ $200 per month
#3. Keep $1500 in a Porsche bank account
There's the saying, although it's a few years outdated, that a 944 is a $5k car. You either buy it for $1k and spend $4k getting it reliable, or you buy a good example for $5k. Turbos are about twice that.
I've had my turbo for 11 years now, and in 70k miles it has only strand me twice (head gaskets blowing at the track). After the 2nd time, I bought a trailer... Interestingly, since owning the trailer, I've never had a severe mechanical failure. However I did crash into a tire wall once.
But, if you add up all I've spent on it over the years, it would equal the GDP of a small country... You know what they say: to make a small fortune in racing, start with a large one.
01-25-2011, 03:39 PM
#109
I would say a sorted, reliable, low-mileage NA is a $10-12k car and a Turbo, $15-18k...in real world DD expense. This is with good cosmetics....body/paint/interior/dash.
Last edited by BlackOp; 01-26-2011 at 02:58 PM.
01-25-2011, 03:44 PM
#110
Nordschleife Master
I should be able to stick below the imposed limit on the N/A.... turbo is an entirely different story.. a little over 6K on the motor alone.. + stand alone + knock control + turbo + exhaust + body + suspension mods... it is easy to spend that $$....
01-25-2011, 03:57 PM
#111
It's a safe bet that you will spend 1 1/2 times what you paid for it...if you drive it regularly for over 3 years. 2 1/2 if you pay a shop. Obviously some people will get lucky.... but that luck is fleeting the longer you own it.
01-25-2011, 04:01 PM
#112
Nordschleife Master
close to 2x spent on the N/A, and the 951... totally different story...
01-25-2011, 04:09 PM
#113
This is why there are a ****-ton of depleted NA's for sale....they are hitting the quarter of a century mark. I rarely see really nice ones. Nobody wants to spend $5-7k in maintenance. They will be all gone in about 5-10 years....to the smasher.
01-25-2011, 05:27 PM
#114
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
Posts: 28,705
Received 212 Likes
on
153 Posts
*i mentioned that my car's second ac condensor had gone bad. typo. i meant to say PS pump. 
EDIT:
these have been some pretty interesting posts...
i wish i had more data.... it's just an empirical observation; even factoring in that 944s are 8-12 years older than 968s, and in most cases have more miles, i draw what is for me, a clear conclusion that the '68 is a better built car. the accessories surrounding the variocam engine leave much to be desired... the bad ps systems, and semi-exotic, expensive maintenance aside, and maybe i'd be better served staying silent, but, i have heard over and over about 968s topping 150, 200, and 250 k miles without the maddening repair issues associated with 944s.
problems with the 968 that come to mind:
1. pinion bearing failures in the early days. (early owners really got f_cked by Porsche).
2. chronic power steering component failures. (the racks probably go bad due to failed pumps).
3. oil coolers lines.
4. oil leaks.
5. ac condensors.
6. cruise control goes out.
7. cats go bad (over-rated high-flow cats) to go w/ the 383 pound exhaust pipes that help tame the giant lawnmower variocam engine....
these problems persist. they repeat several times over during the life of any Porsche 968..... knowing that rather "expensive ownership" will continue in the future, is just another reason why my engine is "going" out of this car.
the previous owner had a radiator failure. i don't know what the circumstances were with that. (he did live in the south). he also replaced the ac condensor, redid the oil cooler lines (need to re-check the maint records), and kept up with all scheduled maintenance.... he also replaced the ps pump at about 65 k miles, (the ps pump has again gone bad)... as for moderate repairs that have been done, it's pretty damn good by P-car standards.... i hear about most of these same issues from other owners.
problems with the 944: for fear of losing my life..... not going there.
there is also the Urban Dictionary's fun estimate of the 968's role in life.... please click below:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...=Porsche%20968
(i sure as hell, didn't write it and i happen to disagree).
.
EDIT:
these have been some pretty interesting posts...
i wish i had more data.... it's just an empirical observation; even factoring in that 944s are 8-12 years older than 968s, and in most cases have more miles, i draw what is for me, a clear conclusion that the '68 is a better built car. the accessories surrounding the variocam engine leave much to be desired... the bad ps systems, and semi-exotic, expensive maintenance aside, and maybe i'd be better served staying silent, but, i have heard over and over about 968s topping 150, 200, and 250 k miles without the maddening repair issues associated with 944s.
problems with the 968 that come to mind:
1. pinion bearing failures in the early days. (early owners really got f_cked by Porsche).
2. chronic power steering component failures. (the racks probably go bad due to failed pumps).
3. oil coolers lines.
4. oil leaks.
5. ac condensors.
6. cruise control goes out.
7. cats go bad (over-rated high-flow cats) to go w/ the 383 pound exhaust pipes that help tame the giant lawnmower variocam engine....
these problems persist. they repeat several times over during the life of any Porsche 968..... knowing that rather "expensive ownership" will continue in the future, is just another reason why my engine is "going" out of this car.
the previous owner had a radiator failure. i don't know what the circumstances were with that. (he did live in the south). he also replaced the ac condensor, redid the oil cooler lines (need to re-check the maint records), and kept up with all scheduled maintenance.... he also replaced the ps pump at about 65 k miles, (the ps pump has again gone bad)... as for moderate repairs that have been done, it's pretty damn good by P-car standards.... i hear about most of these same issues from other owners.
problems with the 944: for fear of losing my life..... not going there.
there is also the Urban Dictionary's fun estimate of the 968's role in life.... please click below:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...=Porsche%20968
(i sure as hell, didn't write it and i happen to disagree).
.
Last edited by odurandina; 01-25-2011 at 05:54 PM.
01-25-2011, 06:33 PM
#115
Burning Brakes
you people are not helping.
If the clutch goes, the motor comes out, and it's rod bearing time. Mounts are done, and I have a super low mile original exhaust to put underneath, and I picked up a complete S2 intake setup from brian944turbo (awesome). I would like to do a high-flow cat, though. must...resist...temptation...
01-25-2011, 06:40 PM
#116
Burning Brakes
i wish i had more data.... it's just an empirical observation; even factoring in that 944s are 8-12 years older than 968s, and in most cases have more miles, i draw what is for me, a clear conclusion that the '68 is a better built car. the accessories surrounding the variocam engine leave much to be desired... the bad ps systems, and semi-exotic, expensive maintenance aside, and maybe i'd be better served staying silent, but, i have heard over and over about 968s topping 150, 200, and 250 k miles without the maddening repair issues associated with 944s.
problems with the 944: for fear of losing my life..... not going there.
problems with the 944: for fear of losing my life..... not going there.
eh...they're so close the failures are about the same. I rebuilt the top end of the S at 161k because I was a jackass and drove the car for 7,000 miles on NO previous maintenance records and a timing belt on borrowed time. That was a extra $500 lesson I didn't need. That was the first time the motor had been opened, and it was obviously neglected. I'd call that a good run.
the 968 still has chain tensioner pads, wiring faults, rod bearing failures, etc. I think it's that more of them are newer. They were also tremendously more expensive--an '83 944 cost what, 20 grand? Your 968 was more than double. I think they got treated better over the years due to a higher point of entry. Think 928's--plenty of very nice S4's and up, MOST before aren't worth more than scrap.
01-25-2011, 06:57 PM
#117
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
Posts: 28,705
Received 212 Likes
on
153 Posts
i wanted to include this in the thread. nothing against the op.... this is a 951, so the rule doesn't really apply w/ this more-exotic, 944, but in the case of the n/a cars, i like the general idea of taking that first car and parting it. of course, when you find a 951 parts car, maybe you've hit the jackpot.
feeling your pain but, this doesn't surprise.....
sad but, true.
OK I'm sure this will incite some "wuss" comments from some on here, but here goes...
Bought an 86 951 last Spring after 20 years of dreaming. When it runs, it's fun, but therein lies the rub. It's been down for an alternator problem, a starter problem, a slave and then master cylinder problem...you name it. I thought I would be able to do a lot more work myself, but quickly realized that I wasn't as mechanical as I thought I was and/or these things are harder to work on than a 60s era Chevy. Add to that I don't have a garage but have to work outside on a parking pad and can't have the car in any way appear inoperable or I get fined by the POA and it is more difficult.
Today is the capper. My mech just called and said it wouldn't start while he was converting the A/C system---upon further review I've got chocolate milk which we all know either means a blown head or gasket, either way big time money to fix. I'm thinking of just parting it out, selling as is...hell I don't know, somebody give me an idea cuz my head is spinning! The ex-wife just took me back to court over alimony and child support, I don't have the extra to be pissing it down a hole if I can't get this to stay in one piece for more than a month at a time of weekend driving! I don't push it, I don't race it...did I get a lemon or is this just what it's like owning a 25yo Porsche?! Arrgh... I bought this off a reputable guy, through a contact on here, and thought I was getting the best car I could for the money. He had just done $2500 of work on the car the month before I bought it---motor mounts, water pump, timing belt, etc etc I thought I'd be set for a while if I didn't push it hard! Seriously---is this normal, and what's it going to cost me to get it fixed vs. what it's worth as is to somebody here. I still owe money on this thing!
Have your laugh at my expense, and then please give me any good advice you can. Thanks in advance.
Bought an 86 951 last Spring after 20 years of dreaming. When it runs, it's fun, but therein lies the rub. It's been down for an alternator problem, a starter problem, a slave and then master cylinder problem...you name it. I thought I would be able to do a lot more work myself, but quickly realized that I wasn't as mechanical as I thought I was and/or these things are harder to work on than a 60s era Chevy. Add to that I don't have a garage but have to work outside on a parking pad and can't have the car in any way appear inoperable or I get fined by the POA and it is more difficult.
Today is the capper. My mech just called and said it wouldn't start while he was converting the A/C system---upon further review I've got chocolate milk which we all know either means a blown head or gasket, either way big time money to fix. I'm thinking of just parting it out, selling as is...hell I don't know, somebody give me an idea cuz my head is spinning! The ex-wife just took me back to court over alimony and child support, I don't have the extra to be pissing it down a hole if I can't get this to stay in one piece for more than a month at a time of weekend driving! I don't push it, I don't race it...did I get a lemon or is this just what it's like owning a 25yo Porsche?! Arrgh... I bought this off a reputable guy, through a contact on here, and thought I was getting the best car I could for the money. He had just done $2500 of work on the car the month before I bought it---motor mounts, water pump, timing belt, etc etc I thought I'd be set for a while if I didn't push it hard! Seriously---is this normal, and what's it going to cost me to get it fixed vs. what it's worth as is to somebody here. I still owe money on this thing!
Have your laugh at my expense, and then please give me any good advice you can. Thanks in advance.
feeling your pain but, this doesn't surprise.....
You seem really stressed out. I would cut losses.. Ditch the car and make sure the kids have the money they are entitled to. Heck, the next owner will see the $x,xxxx you've already spent and know its a good car 
. Seriously though.. Just sell it.. Never buy a cheap porsche again. Learn from this experience.
. Seriously though.. Just sell it.. Never buy a cheap porsche again. Learn from this experience.sad but, true.
01-25-2011, 07:33 PM
#118
Nordschleife Master
no more turbos...I have two already!
If the clutch goes, the motor comes out, and it's rod bearing time. Mounts are done, and I have a super low mile original exhaust to put underneath, and I picked up a complete S2 intake setup from brian944turbo (awesome). I would like to do a high-flow cat, though. must...resist...temptation...
If the clutch goes, the motor comes out, and it's rod bearing time. Mounts are done, and I have a super low mile original exhaust to put underneath, and I picked up a complete S2 intake setup from brian944turbo (awesome). I would like to do a high-flow cat, though. must...resist...temptation...
01-25-2011, 11:31 PM
#119
Burning Brakes
I hadn't even considered it before I read it on here. Since both of my cars should get new rod bearings AND clutches, it doesn't make sense to pull both ends apart to get to the middle.
i still need to study the method...
i still need to study the method...
01-26-2011, 02:26 AM
#120
Three Wheelin'
i'd only pull the motor to do the clutch...and i'd never want to pull both the motor and the trans at the same time...because then you have to start messing with proper insertion depths on both ends and it can get super confusing and tricky...I only pull once side at a time, and always make sure everythings attached properly at the other side. But yes, motor out is the way to go!