dualblade

[quote]Originally posted by enzos_nightmare:
<strong>What else could we do to change their minds? Porsche does not seem to listen to the real enthusiasts anymore. Look what happened to the air-cooled engine. It is all about the bottom line to the factory now. That is why I am dedicated to the Porsches from the 80's and early 90's. It would be great if we could change their minds, but it looks doubtful. I hate being so negative ( I hate all these 911 clones even more) but I am trying to be realistic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i thought that water cooling was more about better cooling. how's that selling out? if water cooling works better than use that. don't keep an inferior technology just for nostalgia

Enzo's Nightmare

Dualblade, I was using the air-cooled engine to make a point about the Porsche factory not caring about what the Porsche enthusiast feels. In case you don't remember, when the 996 came out a lot of 911 fans were disgusted about the engine being water-cooled. I never stated any preference in engines, nor did I say Porsche sold out. I was just making a point.

Geo

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>Heck with a sub 2 liter motor they can go to WRC with it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bingo!

Also, many other racing classes have 2 liter limits.

While Porsche may indeed be considering testing the F1 waters again, WRC is the hottest ticket on the international motorsports scene at the moment.

The Audi is already available with AWD. Yum yum. I think a Porsche WRC contender would rock.

I agree with folks saying to keep the weight down. Porsche, like Nissan with the Z, Toyota with the Supra, and Mazda with the RX-7 went heavier and heavier and kept loading up the cars with luxo crap. Most car makers still continue to do this because it means big profits for them. But, if you want a performance model, it's imperative to keep it low mass and simple.

Now, what Porsche could bring to the table is some serious power for this engine. Much as I like the 1.8T engine, it's still pretty lame by world standards. Nissan was making 237 bhp with the SR20DET (2 liter) engine used in their WRC homolugation special GTi-R over 10 years ago. The Bluebird (our Altima) SR20DET in my G20 makes 205 bhp stock. Hell, the SR20DE in my SE-R made 140 bhp stock over 10 years ago. That's only 10 less hp than the 1.8T!

If this were a serious project, they would need to enlarge the displacement to just under 2.0 liters, get a better turbo. Improve the intake manifold, probably short runner, large plenum, with individual throttle bodies for improved throttle response. Basically, Porsche could take the basic package and reengineer it into a world-class performance engine that would be worthy product for the 948 - especially if they do decide to go WRC.

God, I just wish they would stop styling their cars to all look like a caricature of the bloated 996.

Thom

(( [quote]Originally posted by Luis de Prat:
<strong>a factory 951S cabriolet</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Luis,
Please forgive my ignorance but what does the "S" stands for?))

Geo

[quote]Originally posted by thom:
<strong>((
Hi Luis,
Please forgive my ignorance but what does the "S" stands for?))</strong><hr></blockquote>

$

Luis de Prat

[quote]Originally posted by thom:
<strong>Hi Luis, Please forgive my ignorance but what does the "S" stands for?))</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Thom, George is right with the "money sign" to the extent that this model was probably on the costlier side of all the 944 cars produced. It sold for over DM100,000 new, but they're quite a bargain if you can find a decent one today.

As you know, 951 is the factory designation for the 944 turbo. The 951S is basically a "Sport" version of the 951 that was first offered in 1988 and became standard in 1989. The S cars have a larger turbo compressor, limited slip differential, better suspension, etc.

jason1972

remember, the new "928" looks very much like the 911/boxter family face with coupe body.

as for the 948, there are speculation that it will compete directly with the new nissan Z.

by the way, the 948 coupe is the same chasis/frame used in the audi TT/vw new bug.

Silverbullet951

Is there any way the people who run this forum can get in touch with Porsche and try toget something going? Maybe we could have a vote on what people think the new 951 should be. I think it should stick with a 2.7 or 2.8 liter displacement, maybe a bigger turbo (keep it a single turbo), 4 cylinders, 16 valve (maybe even 20 valve), have the tranny in the back (strengthened to take lots of power). High performance differential, maybe they could dump the cv joints. Looks that resemble the old 951( except more aggressive), an interior very similar to the old 951 with a boost gauge in the center console, keep the same seat design ( it's one of the nicest) nice suspension setup. ANd we're off! Maybe 380-400 hp stock would be great. That would be the perfect 951 for me. And the price must be high. I want the value of my 951 to go up in value too! If this new 951 is entry level, then it wont help anything. Are any of you up to taking a vote? Just to see what the majority of POrsche 944 owners think.

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>Hell, the SR20DE in my SE-R made 140 bhp stock over 10 years ago. That's only 10 less hp than the 1.8T!<hr></blockquote></strong>
Err, that's not correct. The 1.8 n/a in the Audi TT makes 180hp, while the 1.8 turbo powerplant generates 225 horsepower!
[quote]Originally posted by Matt Olde:<strong>
My original point, WHY put a Audi 1.8L engine from the Audi TT (which, IN MY HUMBLE [immature] OPINION, sucks compared to a bone stock 951) into a Porsche again? <hr></blockquote></strong>
Well, turbos do SUCK (pun intended ), but how can you say that a 1.8 turbo engine rated at 225hp isn't as good as a 220hp 2.5 turbo? Doesn't the 1.8 have a better hp per displacement ratio? Ok, it has 5 connecting rings on the valve cover instead of a crest, but if the crest is going to cost me another $10k, I'll take the rings. But I'd still like the crest on the rest of the car!
[quote]Originally posted by Luis:<strong>
The Boxsters are having trouble selling because they've been mass produced and PCNA president himself admitted in a Pano interview that they've had a lot of quality control problems.<hr></blockquote></strong>
It is unfortunate that mass producing a car will often result in quality control issues. (That's happening at Mercedes too!) However: in 15 years, people forget a lot of things: OUR cars were mass produced, and they too had quality control issues compared to 911's of the same vintage. However: there's something else that is contributing to the bad rap the Boxster is getting: LEASING. Back when our cars were sold, leasing wasn't as popular as it is in today's disposable society. Many, many people are leasing Boxsters, and generally speaking, people who lease cars tend to take less care of them than people who buy them.
[quote]Originally posted by Luis:<strong>
As you know, 951 is the factory designation for the 944 turbo. The 951S is basically a "Sport" version of the 951 that was first offered in 1988 and became standard in 1989...&lt;snip&gt;</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, IIRC, when Porsche first started using the initial 'S' it stood for "Super" not "Sport" For example, a 356SC was a 356 Super Carrera (Carrera was taken from a race,I believe Mexican: the Carrera Panamerica).

Sorry about being **** retentive in this post...
-Z-man.

billybones

Entry level is just that, 914 to 924 to 944 and so on. as you move on to better things in life you stay with the marque you started with.. Same concept all car companies use. Where do you think the concept of leasing came from? Porsche's problem is they forgot the mid 20's price range. Ran a campaign during fox's prefootball show. Did not realize that the middle class is no longer around and could not afford 30 plus for entry level.

M758

I do not think a 350-400hp 951 type replacement will EVER happen. You cannot make a business case for it so it will not be done. It would be equvalent to the 996 (or next version of it) and therefore the car will never be made. Honestly most people will not spend 60-70k on a 4cylinder even if it is a 300 hp machine. Sure there will be a few, but just that a few. That was the rap on the 968. $55k for 4 cylinder? Sure it a 3.0l 236 hp car, but a 4 cylinder???

The only chance a front engine 4 cyl car has is as an entry level machine. This means power not greater than the lowest boxster of the day. This car will not be hugly powerfull nor will be able to "beat" other new Porsches. That is not its mission. It mission is to be lower price car that gets people in to a Porsche that would otherwise not be able to do so. Simply put a 225hp motor with 220ft-lbs of torque in a 2500-2700 hp car will be a blast. This is better ratio that the stock 951 anyway. If they use a turbo motor then you still have high hp upgrade path.

Silverbullet951

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>I do not think a 350-400hp 951 type replacement will EVER happen. You cannot make a business case for it so it will not be done. It would be equvalent to the 996 (or next version of it) and therefore the car will never be made. Honestly most people will not spend 60-70k on a 4cylinder even if it is a 300 hp machine. Sure there will be a few, but just that a few. That was the rap on the 968. $55k for 4 cylinder? Sure it a 3.0l 236 hp car, but a 4 cylinder???

The only chance a front engine 4 cyl car has is as an entry level machine. This means power not greater than the lowest boxster of the day. This car will not be hugly powerfull nor will be able to "beat" other new Porsches. That is not its mission. It mission is to be lower price car that gets people in to a Porsche that would otherwise not be able to do so. Simply put a 225hp motor with 220ft-lbs of torque in a 2500-2700 hp car will be a blast. This is better ratio that the stock 951 anyway. If they use a turbo motor then you still have high hp upgrade path.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I undertand perfectly, and that's exactly how everyone thinks, but i think that is a dumb way of looking at it. So what if it's a four cylinder? The F40 has 6 and it costs half a million dollars. It's the name, and the quality and the heritage that Porsche has which give it the price which it deserves.

Bob S. 1984 Silver

Dump the concept of a four; eliminate the balance shafts, go with an inline 5 or 6 cylinder motor with 3 liter displacement, or pattern the engine after the compact and nicely done VW VR6 configuration. Personally, I would love to have the disposable $$$ to install a late model VR6 into my '44. I think that would be an extrodinarily interesting project!!!

Cheers!!

Luis de Prat

[quote]Originaly posted by Z-Man: <strong>It is unfortunate that mass producing a car will often result in quality control issues. (That's happening at Mercedes too!) However: in 15 years, people forget a lot of things: OUR cars were mass produced, and they too had quality control issues compared to 911's of the same vintage.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, if you consider 944 production at the Audi plant in Neckarsulm, Germany, comparable to the farming out of Boxster production to a Finnish factory, then yes, the 944s were also mass produced.

Mercedes has traditionally been a mass producer of automobiles, whereas Porsche has not. The street production 944 derived from a car that ran at Le Mans, whereas the Boxster does not.

It's an entirely different business philosophy to "refine a sports car for every day driving," (to quote Dr. P in the early 944 advertising) than to build a car to appeal to the market.

M Danger

UH... The F40 is a V8, twin turbo

OK heres some #s
telfon(0 70 44) 35-0 also -3150
telfax(0 70 44) 35-25 55

ALSO h: ++49-711-911-4060
fax: ++49-711-911-2333

and ph: ++49-2191-50025

Main headquarters:
Phone: +49-711-911-0
Fax: +49-711-911-5777


Porsche Zentrum Stuttgart
Telephone +49 - 711 - 9 11-62 20
Telefax +49 - 711 - 9 11-62 62
E-Mail info.pzstuttgart@porsche.de

Margret.Bast@porsche.de

Leipzig Porsche Centre

Phone (+49 3 41) 9 19 36-0
Telefax (+49 3 41) 9 19 36-24

porschezentrumleipzig@kamps-gruppe.de


Have at it, keep in mind not everyone one that answers may speak english.

Mike