Porsche will reintroduce 944 in 2005!
11-14-2002, 02:33 PM
#76
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>Err, that's not correct. The 1.8 n/a in the Audi TT makes 180hp, while the 1.8 turbo powerplant generates 225 horsepower!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, you got me. I was thinking about the VW trim that was also being discussed. The Audi TT figures are indeed healthy. I'm sure Porsche could get some more out of the turbo anyway.
[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>Well, turbos do SUCK (pun intended )</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, turbos blow. NA sucks.
<strong>Err, that's not correct. The 1.8 n/a in the Audi TT makes 180hp, while the 1.8 turbo powerplant generates 225 horsepower!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, you got me. I was thinking about the VW trim that was also being discussed. The Audi TT figures are indeed healthy. I'm sure Porsche could get some more out of the turbo anyway.
[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>Well, turbos do SUCK (pun intended )</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, turbos blow. NA sucks.
11-14-2002, 02:58 PM
#78
[quote]Originally posted by Luis de Prat:
<strong>
Hi Thom, George is right with the "money sign" to the extent that this model was probably on the costlier side of all the 944 cars produced. It sold for over DM100,000 new, but they're quite a bargain if you can find a decent one today.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep, I know that
A friend of mine bought one with the M030 - it is believed that only 16 951 cabs were fitted with this option!
[quote]Originally posted by Luis de Prat:
<strong>
As you know, 951 is the factory designation for the 944 turbo. The 951S is basically a "Sport" version of the 951 that was first offered in 1988 and became standard in 1989. The S cars have a larger turbo compressor, limited slip differential, better suspension, etc. </strong> <hr></blockquote>
I know that too
I also know that some S were produced in 1990-1991 for the German market exclusively, but I couldn't really tell what was the equipment featured...
(by the way, there was no US version in 1991, was there?)
Cheers!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
<strong>
Hi Thom, George is right with the "money sign" to the extent that this model was probably on the costlier side of all the 944 cars produced. It sold for over DM100,000 new, but they're quite a bargain if you can find a decent one today.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep, I know that
A friend of mine bought one with the M030 - it is believed that only 16 951 cabs were fitted with this option!
[quote]Originally posted by Luis de Prat:
<strong>
As you know, 951 is the factory designation for the 944 turbo. The 951S is basically a "Sport" version of the 951 that was first offered in 1988 and became standard in 1989. The S cars have a larger turbo compressor, limited slip differential, better suspension, etc. </strong> <hr></blockquote>
I know that too
I also know that some S were produced in 1990-1991 for the German market exclusively, but I couldn't really tell what was the equipment featured...
(by the way, there was no US version in 1991, was there?)
Cheers!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
11-14-2002, 03:24 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
Thom,
Your friend's car must be the one that was featured in a French auto magazine, which the author believed to be the only M030 equipped 951S cabrio in France.
It's black, like mine, but has the forged "Club Sport" wheels.
Of the 527 cars built, none were made for the U.S. market, although I'm sure a few must have been imported by American enthusiasts.
Your friend's car must be the one that was featured in a French auto magazine, which the author believed to be the only M030 equipped 951S cabrio in France.
It's black, like mine, but has the forged "Club Sport" wheels.
Of the 527 cars built, none were made for the U.S. market, although I'm sure a few must have been imported by American enthusiasts.
11-14-2002, 04:22 PM
#80
Race Car
Z' You haven't been doing your homework on the competition, have you?
[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>Err, that's not correct. The 1.8 n/a in the Audi TT makes 180hp, while the 1.8 turbo powerplant generates 225 horsepower!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, both are turbos, one's just tweeked a little more.
[quote] Ok, it has 5 connecting rings on the valve cover instead of a crest, but if the crest is going to cost me another $10k, I'll take the rings. <hr></blockquote>
As much as I agree, there are only 4 rings, one each for Audi, DKW, Horst and Wanderer, the 4 companies that merged to form Auto Union (which later reverted to the Audi name.
[quote]Actually, IIRC, when Porsche first started using the initial 'S' it stood for "Super" not "Sport" For example, a 356SC was a 356 Super Carrera (Carrera was taken from a race,I believe Mexican: the Carrera Panamerica). <hr></blockquote>
Correct on "super", IIRC, Carerra is spanish for "race".
[quote] Sorry about being **** retentive in this post...
-Z-man.
<hr></blockquote>
Me Too
[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>Err, that's not correct. The 1.8 n/a in the Audi TT makes 180hp, while the 1.8 turbo powerplant generates 225 horsepower!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, both are turbos, one's just tweeked a little more.
[quote] Ok, it has 5 connecting rings on the valve cover instead of a crest, but if the crest is going to cost me another $10k, I'll take the rings. <hr></blockquote>
As much as I agree, there are only 4 rings, one each for Audi, DKW, Horst and Wanderer, the 4 companies that merged to form Auto Union (which later reverted to the Audi name.
[quote]Actually, IIRC, when Porsche first started using the initial 'S' it stood for "Super" not "Sport" For example, a 356SC was a 356 Super Carrera (Carrera was taken from a race,I believe Mexican: the Carrera Panamerica). <hr></blockquote>
Correct on "super", IIRC, Carerra is spanish for "race".
[quote] Sorry about being **** retentive in this post...
-Z-man.
<hr></blockquote>
Me Too
11-14-2002, 04:59 PM
#81
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I can't believe that the Boxster is only in its 6th model year of production and we are talking about how Porsche needs to have a car in the $30-$35k range?? Please...Porsche will just do what they ALWAYS do...Introduce a "model for the masses" like the 944 and then price the thing out of the market for the performance offered. Honestly, my car stickered for $52k in 1991. Who in their right mind would have paid $52k in 1991 for an S2 Cabriolet??? What an idiot. It is a nice car but for $52k it is a piece of crap.
My point is that when the Boxster was introduced Porsche specifically priced it below $30k base price to attract people to the marque. When they introduced the Boxster I said they would price it out of reach in short order and that is exactly what they have done. When base price goes from $29970 to ~$42K in only 6 model years you are cutting a significant portion of that "new" client base out of your market right after you got them interested in your marque. A significant portion of the people that bought their first Porsche brand new in 1997 and would like to buy another 6 years later can't afford it.
Porsche originally intended the Boxster to appeal to recent college grads who just landed their first job. Well, their aren't too many 23-24 year olds out there that can afford a $42K base price.
Inflation has not increased nearly as much as the price of the Boxster. Porsche hasn't raised the price of the 911 (996) nearly as much as the Boxster. The reason??? Because Porsche sells more Boxsters than they do 911's. Therefore, by increasing the Boxster's base price they increase not only profit margin but volume profit margin. At least it appears that way on paper to the guy how decided to do it.
Porsche just hasn't figured it out. The client base for Porsche is made up of the people that just love these cars. Nobody buys Porsche because of the great dealer service. Most Porsche dealerships I've dealt with simply suck. It's like taking your car to a Ford dealership or something.
Anyway, I hope they don't make ANOTHER entry level Porsche. They already built that damned 4x4 station wagon named Cayenne. And before any of you start...I don't give a damn if it can circle the Nurburgring faster than a GT2, leap tall buildings in a single bound and make me coffee at the same time...Porsche is supposed to be a sports car company. I'll get off of my rant now. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> It just pisses me off. I have loved these cars since I was a kid and hate what they are doing to the model line. I think my next sports car will be an M3. I would like to get bang for my buck and great dealer service.
Regards, Mad Max
p.s.- Flame on...I just put on my Nomex flight suit. Come and get some.
My point is that when the Boxster was introduced Porsche specifically priced it below $30k base price to attract people to the marque. When they introduced the Boxster I said they would price it out of reach in short order and that is exactly what they have done. When base price goes from $29970 to ~$42K in only 6 model years you are cutting a significant portion of that "new" client base out of your market right after you got them interested in your marque. A significant portion of the people that bought their first Porsche brand new in 1997 and would like to buy another 6 years later can't afford it.
Porsche originally intended the Boxster to appeal to recent college grads who just landed their first job. Well, their aren't too many 23-24 year olds out there that can afford a $42K base price.
Inflation has not increased nearly as much as the price of the Boxster. Porsche hasn't raised the price of the 911 (996) nearly as much as the Boxster. The reason??? Because Porsche sells more Boxsters than they do 911's. Therefore, by increasing the Boxster's base price they increase not only profit margin but volume profit margin. At least it appears that way on paper to the guy how decided to do it.
Porsche just hasn't figured it out. The client base for Porsche is made up of the people that just love these cars. Nobody buys Porsche because of the great dealer service. Most Porsche dealerships I've dealt with simply suck. It's like taking your car to a Ford dealership or something.
Anyway, I hope they don't make ANOTHER entry level Porsche. They already built that damned 4x4 station wagon named Cayenne. And before any of you start...I don't give a damn if it can circle the Nurburgring faster than a GT2, leap tall buildings in a single bound and make me coffee at the same time...Porsche is supposed to be a sports car company. I'll get off of my rant now. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> It just pisses me off. I have loved these cars since I was a kid and hate what they are doing to the model line. I think my next sports car will be an M3. I would like to get bang for my buck and great dealer service.
Regards, Mad Max
p.s.- Flame on...I just put on my Nomex flight suit. Come and get some.
11-14-2002, 05:04 PM
#82
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Dave:
<strong>Z' You haven't been doing your homework on the competition, have you? et al...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
ACK! Sorry for the misinfomation!!!
Yeah, the 1.8 in the TT is a turbo in both configurations. I knew that. I read that. Still called the 180hp one a n/a...
5 rings, 4 rings: I can explain: last year, there was a 'mule - prototype' Mercedes E-class here at work with all the add-on plastic body panels. In the rear, they had an emblem on the back: "5 interconnected rings" to throw people off. Mercedes cannot use a competitor's logo...pretty sneaky, eh? Obviously, it threw me off! (Side note: read the Cayenne article in this month's Pano: they pretty much did the same thing!)
And yes, Carrera is spanish for Race, so Carrera Panamerica is "Race across America." This isn't the only time Porsche used a race to name a car: the TARGA is from the Italian (IIRC) race, the "Targa Florio."
Geez: Dave and I are the life of a party, aren't we?!?!? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
Bottom line: if they build it (a true entry level Porsche), they will come...
-Zoltan.
<strong>Z' You haven't been doing your homework on the competition, have you?
et al...</strong><hr></blockquote>
ACK! Sorry for the misinfomation!!!
Yeah, the 1.8 in the TT is a turbo in both configurations. I knew that. I read that. Still called the 180hp one a n/a...
5 rings, 4 rings: I can explain: last year, there was a 'mule - prototype' Mercedes E-class here at work with all the add-on plastic body panels. In the rear, they had an emblem on the back: "5 interconnected rings" to throw people off. Mercedes cannot use a competitor's logo...pretty sneaky, eh? Obviously, it threw me off! (Side note: read the Cayenne article in this month's Pano: they pretty much did the same thing!)
And yes, Carrera is spanish for Race, so Carrera Panamerica is "Race across America." This isn't the only time Porsche used a race to name a car: the TARGA is from the Italian (IIRC) race, the "Targa Florio."
Geez: Dave and I are the life of a party, aren't we?!?!? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
Bottom line: if they build it (a true entry level Porsche), they will come...
-Zoltan.
11-14-2002, 07:02 PM
#83
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[quote] My point is that when the Boxster was introduced Porsche specifically priced it below $30k base price to attract people to the marque. When they introduced the Boxster I said they would price it out of reach in short order and that is exactly what they have done. When base price goes from $29970 to ~$42K in only 6 model years you are cutting a significant portion of that "new" client base out of your market right after you got them interested in your marque. A significant portion of the people that bought their first Porsche brand new in 1997 and would like to buy another 6 years later can't afford it.
<hr></blockquote>
Thats not at all what was going on, in IMHO. I think that when you have a product and you are the only one selling the product and the need for your product grows beyond your production you simply raise the price untill you bring your production numbers down to somthing suitable while still making the same "NET" you would have if you would have kept making as many of the product and selling it at the before lower price.
Phwwwwew, that was a run on sentance. But it makes since when you think about it. I see it happen every day. why sell 50 of somthing for $100 a piece when you can sell 25 for $200. Less production, less work on your end, and the same if not more profits.
<hr></blockquote>
Thats not at all what was going on, in IMHO. I think that when you have a product and you are the only one selling the product and the need for your product grows beyond your production you simply raise the price untill you bring your production numbers down to somthing suitable while still making the same "NET" you would have if you would have kept making as many of the product and selling it at the before lower price.
Phwwwwew, that was a run on sentance. But it makes since when you think about it. I see it happen every day. why sell 50 of somthing for $100 a piece when you can sell 25 for $200. Less production, less work on your end, and the same if not more profits.
11-14-2002, 08:01 PM
#84
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Porsche used to fill a nice little niche in the auto market. They used to make cars for sports car enthusiasts who wanted refinement in their automobiles and who were willing to pay extra for that. However, with the way Porsche has been marketing, you would think that they have stopped listening to their long term customers.
I have a feeling that Porsche is tearing down more long term relationships than they are building up new ones. Especially with the way they have gone about marketing the Boxter and Creating the Cayenne.
I don't see why Porsche feels the need to make entry level sports cars. There already seems to be an over abundance of entry level sports cars in the market these days. IMHO Porsche should continue focusing on the quality and speed and prestige of the automobiles and stop trying to satisfy too many people. Once again, IMHO they would be more profitable if they just stuck to making top end sports cars.
Although I can't say I'm not gratefull that they decided to make the 944. Otherwise I'd probably be driving around some Japanese something or other.
I have a feeling that Porsche is tearing down more long term relationships than they are building up new ones. Especially with the way they have gone about marketing the Boxter and Creating the Cayenne.
I don't see why Porsche feels the need to make entry level sports cars. There already seems to be an over abundance of entry level sports cars in the market these days. IMHO Porsche should continue focusing on the quality and speed and prestige of the automobiles and stop trying to satisfy too many people. Once again, IMHO they would be more profitable if they just stuck to making top end sports cars.
Although I can't say I'm not gratefull that they decided to make the 944. Otherwise I'd probably be driving around some Japanese something or other.
11-14-2002, 09:36 PM
#85
Hi
I can no longer take the torment, would someone please tell me what issue of Autoweek the article about the new 944 (948) appeared in.
Edward <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
I can no longer take the torment, would someone please tell me what issue of Autoweek the article about the new 944 (948) appeared in.
Edward <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
11-15-2002, 12:05 AM
#86
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I know this might raise a few hairs. but Max just commented "who in their right mind would pay 52K for the cab. in 1990" My father bought a 90 Cab and bought it for many reasons. The car was incredible in 90. Think about driving your beautiful Cab when it was brand new, I bet you too would have thought it was worth every penny of its cost. Porsche was high above the rest in 90, hence why they were so much more money. Duel Air bags, Comfort features, the largest 4 Cylinder in production at the time! I still remember that car to this day. It was incredible.
~Dust
~Dust
11-15-2002, 12:41 AM
#87
Rennlist Member
Max, the Boxster is still the most affordable Porsche even though the MSRP has crept up since its introduction.
The $50K sticker for the S2 cabrios in 1990 may seem steep, but like Dustin pointed out, these cars were pretty outstanding for their time when they first came out. Not to mention their unique styling which still turns heads 12 years later.
The 944 cabrios are also proving to have considerably better build quality than the current Boxster cars. With a total of less than 6,000 S2 cabs built world wide, these "pieces of cr@p" are likely to appreciate for what they are: real Porsches.
The $50K sticker for the S2 cabrios in 1990 may seem steep, but like Dustin pointed out, these cars were pretty outstanding for their time when they first came out. Not to mention their unique styling which still turns heads 12 years later.
The 944 cabrios are also proving to have considerably better build quality than the current Boxster cars. With a total of less than 6,000 S2 cabs built world wide, these "pieces of cr@p" are likely to appreciate for what they are: real Porsches.
11-15-2002, 01:12 AM
#88
Race Director
I completly agree with MadMax...word for word..he is right...I also dont want a low end porsche to be produced...it just doesnt seem right! I have lots to say but its 1.17am here and I gotta work EARLY tommorow...
regards
mike
regards
mike
11-15-2002, 03:17 AM
#89
[quote]Originally posted by Luis de Prat:
<strong>Your friend's car must be the one that was featured in a French auto magazine, which the author believed to be the only M030 equipped 951S cabrio in France.
It's black, like mine, but has the forged "Club Sport" wheels.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Luis,
Actually no, the rims of my friend's car are the stock 951 "Design 90" wheels, not the forged ones of the Turbo S...
That said it is very possible that the previous owner replaced the forged wheels with the current ones. Another mystery on his car are the Konis: they are the yellow ones of the M474 (non-adjustable), not the yellow ones of the M030 (adjustable); We are led to believe that the previous owner preferred to put M474 Konis beacuse they're much less expensive than M030's...
But the option sticker (indicating 030) matches with the car; isn't that weird?
Well, who knows...
Here is <a href="http://asarus4.free.fr/ressources/manifestations/2002_07_27/DCP_0476.JPG" target="_blank">a picture</a> of it
<strong>Your friend's car must be the one that was featured in a French auto magazine, which the author believed to be the only M030 equipped 951S cabrio in France.
It's black, like mine, but has the forged "Club Sport" wheels.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Luis,
Actually no, the rims of my friend's car are the stock 951 "Design 90" wheels, not the forged ones of the Turbo S...
That said it is very possible that the previous owner replaced the forged wheels with the current ones. Another mystery on his car are the Konis: they are the yellow ones of the M474 (non-adjustable), not the yellow ones of the M030 (adjustable); We are led to believe that the previous owner preferred to put M474 Konis beacuse they're much less expensive than M030's...
But the option sticker (indicating 030) matches with the car; isn't that weird?
Well, who knows...
Here is <a href="http://asarus4.free.fr/ressources/manifestations/2002_07_27/DCP_0476.JPG" target="_blank">a picture</a> of it
11-15-2002, 04:13 AM
#90
Race Car
[quote]Originally posted by MadMax:
<strong>I think my next sports car will be an M3. I would like to get bang for my buck...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You'll get the bang alright:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003004" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003004</a>
<strong>I think my next sports car will be an M3. I would like to get bang for my buck...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You'll get the bang alright:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003004" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003004</a>