Aftermarket 944 Control arms. Retail pricing seems a bit off...
12-02-2008, 05:57 PM
#92
Drifting
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Funny invention story.
Soon after 9/11 I had a guy approach me (I'm an aviation lawyer) with what he considered a guaranteed success. It was an aircraft seatbelt system that gives the crew control over the locking system. Basically, once the passengers buckle up, only the pilot/crew could let you unbuckle. I explained the liability issues associated with that, and the fact that passengers would avoid any airline that installed involuntary restraints. And that airlines are not going to spend a dime on security unless absolutely required to do so.
But he was totally invested (mentally and financially) and kept flailing away for a couple of years.
Soon after 9/11 I had a guy approach me (I'm an aviation lawyer) with what he considered a guaranteed success. It was an aircraft seatbelt system that gives the crew control over the locking system. Basically, once the passengers buckle up, only the pilot/crew could let you unbuckle. I explained the liability issues associated with that, and the fact that passengers would avoid any airline that installed involuntary restraints. And that airlines are not going to spend a dime on security unless absolutely required to do so.
But he was totally invested (mentally and financially) and kept flailing away for a couple of years.
12-02-2008, 06:07 PM
#93
Rennlist Member
To late.We are in the process of designing some new arms that will use a standard ball joint and be Krylon painted, Mig welded, piles of crap. Hows about $600-700 a set? Start placing your orders guys
This is what everyone wants right!!!!!! Lets do it.Sure the ball joint will rust,but it is replacable.The mig welds should be strong enough and who needs powdercoating since paint is cheap.Hell yes.We got a winner here.
This is what everyone wants right!!!!!! Lets do it.Sure the ball joint will rust,but it is replacable.The mig welds should be strong enough and who needs powdercoating since paint is cheap.Hell yes.We got a winner here.Damn, I thought he was going to say he talked you into coming out with a ball joint version of your arms and you were going to sell them for $600 a set. I think this thread proves you'd have a winner if you could figure out how to get your costs down and make a profit on them.
So, now I'm curious what he has up his sleeve...
12-02-2008, 06:13 PM
#94
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You guys can do your thing and we will watch
We have priced out our arms for as cheap as possible using the current materials and processes. We will not bend on the materials or process so that leaves no room for further discounts.
We have priced out our arms for as cheap as possible using the current materials and processes. We will not bend on the materials or process so that leaves no room for further discounts.
12-02-2008, 06:24 PM
#95
Race Director
It is the right of a manufacturer or retailer to price their products at any level they wish. They can over charge all they like.
It is our rights as consumers to simply not buy them.
Now if someone has clearly suprior product that prople want they can price it at premium irrespective of their costs. Why do charlie arms cost so much? Well one reason is it is what people will pay. Is it a rip off? Well you can chose stock arms and they are cheaper.
In the end what is the demand for arms at $500 or $1000 or $1500? Since my race car has steel arms I will spring $75 bucks for new arms with new ball joints. Big spender.... right.
Well my 944 Turbo street car uses aluminum arms, but since I don't track it I have no desire to replace the arms. Will the joints wear out. Maybe. I will deal with it when I get there.
So my point is those that want new arms at any price are only small number of 944 community. And the the thing is those that want them don't just want, but NEED them. All the talk of failures in PCA racing just increase the number that NEED them vs want them. As such if you NEED something you are going to end up paying for it at just about any price. Like it or not.
Heck I want and LSD for my 944 spec car. I have wanted one for years. I never have been happy with cost so I never got one. Now I am starting to think I NEED one. Guess what... that $1300 Guard unit is starting to look reasonable now. Crazy huh...
BTW...
Tim, don't let yourself get pressured in to making something for less than your desired margin. There is alot of talk about people want to spend money, but as you know for being in this business 10 will talk about wanting, but 1 or may be 2 will come though and buy. Don't set yourself up to loose money just to keep a bunch of talkers on rennlist happy. Sure Chad is going to end up buying something. I and confident he will do it, but don't box yourself into a corner. My wife is small business owner who makes her own product. She has a combo of retail and wholesale accounts and I have always told her to price the products at cost plus a fair margin. If it does not sell discontinue it, but don't get too thin on the margin just to make 1-2 customers happy. It can cost you too much in the long run. A healthy business with reasonable margins is requried to support the family and any employees and it needs to come first.
It is our rights as consumers to simply not buy them.
Now if someone has clearly suprior product that prople want they can price it at premium irrespective of their costs. Why do charlie arms cost so much? Well one reason is it is what people will pay. Is it a rip off? Well you can chose stock arms and they are cheaper.
In the end what is the demand for arms at $500 or $1000 or $1500? Since my race car has steel arms I will spring $75 bucks for new arms with new ball joints. Big spender.... right.
Well my 944 Turbo street car uses aluminum arms, but since I don't track it I have no desire to replace the arms. Will the joints wear out. Maybe. I will deal with it when I get there.
So my point is those that want new arms at any price are only small number of 944 community. And the the thing is those that want them don't just want, but NEED them. All the talk of failures in PCA racing just increase the number that NEED them vs want them. As such if you NEED something you are going to end up paying for it at just about any price. Like it or not.
Heck I want and LSD for my 944 spec car. I have wanted one for years. I never have been happy with cost so I never got one. Now I am starting to think I NEED one. Guess what... that $1300 Guard unit is starting to look reasonable now. Crazy huh...
BTW...
Tim, don't let yourself get pressured in to making something for less than your desired margin. There is alot of talk about people want to spend money, but as you know for being in this business 10 will talk about wanting, but 1 or may be 2 will come though and buy. Don't set yourself up to loose money just to keep a bunch of talkers on rennlist happy. Sure Chad is going to end up buying something. I and confident he will do it, but don't box yourself into a corner. My wife is small business owner who makes her own product. She has a combo of retail and wholesale accounts and I have always told her to price the products at cost plus a fair margin. If it does not sell discontinue it, but don't get too thin on the margin just to make 1-2 customers happy. It can cost you too much in the long run. A healthy business with reasonable margins is requried to support the family and any employees and it needs to come first.
12-02-2008, 06:53 PM
#96
Drifting
the Guard limited slip is actually around $1800, the cheaper torque biasing unit is about $1300
12-02-2008, 07:00 PM
#97
Drifting
That would have been me questioning the powdercoating cost. I'm not sure why me asking that would have "got you" since this whole thread is about available control arms being overpriced. I even said I think the $900 he charges is a fair price.
I just feel $75 is too much for powdercoating. The materials cost including electricity would be under $10, probably close to $5. It takes no more than 10minutes to powdercoat that small of parts. Lets minus $10 from $75 which leaves $65. Lets say you do 6 batches an hour (10mins each) so $390 an hour after materials. (The time is not taking into account cure/bake times because thats a simple matter of placing the item in an oven or under ultraviolet light and then removing them once cured) Of course you do have overhead cost like rent, worker expenses, ovens, etc but then so does every business. For example mechanic shops have to buy their own tools, pay rent, etc but yet mechanics are not charging $390 an hour.
One thing that is not taken into account is if the powdercoater is also doing sandblasting, if he is that will easily double the time and cut the profit in half. So lets half the price to $195/hr. Even with a really slow worker working at half pace its still $100/hr.
I'm not trying to say Tim's products are too expensive or any such thing. I think $900 is reasonable for the arms and from browsing sites his products appear to be very good quality and decently priced. In fact I plan on spending money there this spring. I simply think he is being overly generous to his powdercoater....but being overly generous isn't necessarily a bad trait.
If I offended or upset anyone with my posts my apologies.
I just feel $75 is too much for powdercoating. The materials cost including electricity would be under $10, probably close to $5. It takes no more than 10minutes to powdercoat that small of parts. Lets minus $10 from $75 which leaves $65. Lets say you do 6 batches an hour (10mins each) so $390 an hour after materials. (The time is not taking into account cure/bake times because thats a simple matter of placing the item in an oven or under ultraviolet light and then removing them once cured) Of course you do have overhead cost like rent, worker expenses, ovens, etc but then so does every business. For example mechanic shops have to buy their own tools, pay rent, etc but yet mechanics are not charging $390 an hour.
One thing that is not taken into account is if the powdercoater is also doing sandblasting, if he is that will easily double the time and cut the profit in half. So lets half the price to $195/hr. Even with a really slow worker working at half pace its still $100/hr.
I'm not trying to say Tim's products are too expensive or any such thing. I think $900 is reasonable for the arms and from browsing sites his products appear to be very good quality and decently priced. In fact I plan on spending money there this spring. I simply think he is being overly generous to his powdercoater....but being overly generous isn't necessarily a bad trait.
If I offended or upset anyone with my posts my apologies.
12-02-2008, 07:10 PM
#98
Thefu
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It's not what is right or wrong, it's what a lawyer can make the jury believe.
If customer A has product x on his car at a HPDE, and part x fails due to design or manufacturing deficiencies, causing harm to driver, or spectators (other participants) any competent lawyer would have a field day in court.
If customer A has product x on his car at a HPDE, and part x fails due to design or manufacturing deficiencies, causing harm to driver, or spectators (other participants) any competent lawyer would have a field day in court.
What if SFRs control arms fail? What if LRs control arms fail? What if I get brake fade and can't stop?
Do these situations result in any different outcomes than if VTs BIL makes a control arm?
No they do not. If I install any supplier's part myself, the warranty is really out the window unless the supplier installs it himself.
The guy offering to fab up a few control arms is not going to make it his full time business, just as a favour to his BIL and a few of his Porsche enthusiast cohorts. If we pay him what he feels is a fair price for his time, that's fair.
Is it going to hurt SFR or LR? Nope...they have well established and respected businesses in the 944 community. If a handful of missed sales to a part time fabricator is going to bankrupt them...perhaps they do need to sharpen their pencils as stated earlier.
Do these situations result in any different outcomes than if VTs BIL makes a control arm?
No they do not. If I install any supplier's part myself, the warranty is really out the window unless the supplier installs it himself.
The guy offering to fab up a few control arms is not going to make it his full time business, just as a favour to his BIL and a few of his Porsche enthusiast cohorts. If we pay him what he feels is a fair price for his time, that's fair.
Is it going to hurt SFR or LR? Nope...they have well established and respected businesses in the 944 community. If a handful of missed sales to a part time fabricator is going to bankrupt them...perhaps they do need to sharpen their pencils as stated earlier.
12-02-2008, 07:26 PM
#99
Drifting
It's not what is right or wrong, it's what a lawyer can make the jury believe.
If customer A has product x on his car at a HPDE, and part x fails due to design or manufacturing deficiencies, causing harm to driver, or spectators (other participants) any competent lawyer would have a field day in court.
If customer A has product x on his car at a HPDE, and part x fails due to design or manufacturing deficiencies, causing harm to driver, or spectators (other participants) any competent lawyer would have a field day in court.
12-02-2008, 07:26 PM
#100
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You seem to be very familiar with the process but have you ever paid a shop to powder coat anything for you? The shops around me charge $60-90 to blast and coat a car wheel, one shop wanted $250 to coat a tire rack I built. $75 to do a pair of control arms does not sound unreasonable to me...
After pricing local shops to see how much they would charge I found it too high for my product. Now instead of giving money to them I pay myself to do it and pass the savings on to the customer. I only do 100-200 parts a year but it only costs me around $20 in powder and the electricity cost which is pretty low.
12-02-2008, 08:36 PM
#101
Captain Obvious
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It's not what is right or wrong, it's what a lawyer can make the jury believe.
If customer A has product x on his car at a HPDE, and part x fails due to design or manufacturing deficiencies, causing harm to driver, or spectators (other participants) any competent lawyer would have a field day in court.
If customer A has product x on his car at a HPDE, and part x fails due to design or manufacturing deficiencies, causing harm to driver, or spectators (other participants) any competent lawyer would have a field day in court.
So to sum up, yes the "cheaper'' control arm could fail. Yes SFR or LR control arms could fail as well. No manufacturer is 100% flawless.
People are getting away from Chad's original point...aftermarket control arms are priced higher than most can afford.
If VT's BIL can make good quality parts at a better price than currently offered...well great. He's a professional, and if he cares to add 944 control arms to his regular production, then he can sponsor here and sell them when he does. If anyone, such as VT or me for example want to try them, we will at our own risk.
12-02-2008, 08:51 PM
#102
Thefu
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To go into any type of manufacturing, especially of products that will be used in a speed event, without full knowledge and preparation for the worst is foolish at best.
Lawsuits suck, but they are the reality of the modern age in America.
Don't believe me though: http://www.sportscarmarket.com/content/carrera.
Hell, Porsche AG was even tagged for a percentage of the award, you think their engineering credentials may just trump anyones here???
Lawsuits suck, but they are the reality of the modern age in America.
Don't believe me though: http://www.sportscarmarket.com/content/carrera.
Hell, Porsche AG was even tagged for a percentage of the award, you think their engineering credentials may just trump anyones here???
Leave it to someone to start a lawsuit before anyone has even made a product, or seen how it has been tested. If everyone could put their lawyers down, and read the posts by VT, they would read clearly that A) brother in law is in the race car business, and regularly manufactures parts for race car applications, and B) the poster VT is a mechanical engineer that will test the control arms (if made) rigourously to check for any design flaws.
So to sum up, yes the "cheaper'' control arm could fail. Yes SFR or LR control arms could fail as well. No manufacturer is 100% flawless.
People are getting away from Chad's original point...aftermarket control arms are priced higher than most can afford.
If VT's BIL can make good quality parts at a better price than currently offered...well great. He's a professional, and if he cares to add 944 control arms to his regular production, then he can sponsor here and sell them when he does. If anyone, such as VT or me for example want to try them, we will at our own risk.
So to sum up, yes the "cheaper'' control arm could fail. Yes SFR or LR control arms could fail as well. No manufacturer is 100% flawless.
People are getting away from Chad's original point...aftermarket control arms are priced higher than most can afford.
If VT's BIL can make good quality parts at a better price than currently offered...well great. He's a professional, and if he cares to add 944 control arms to his regular production, then he can sponsor here and sell them when he does. If anyone, such as VT or me for example want to try them, we will at our own risk.
12-02-2008, 09:14 PM
#103
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Rest easy boys. I am consulting Motorsports professionals with this task. I need this idea thought through and delivered with the proper professional engineering certifications and expertise. Thus, a professional race car component mass producer is my choice to find out if this is indeed feasable.
The benefits of this solution are:
- Mass production means less $$ required for materials up front
- Mass production means a fabrication run of a specific quantity is required (10 or more)
- Availability for proper materials and component knowledge
- Availability of top-of-the-line fabrication equipment (Water-jet CNC cutters, Robotic CNC welding, CNC Machining)
- Expert knowledge of Motorsports applications
- Proper Engineering certifications and Liability insurance qualifications.
To assume that this project would be prepared by amateurs is completely absurd. To have an automobile part that could be used on the street made that way is irresponsible, IMO. As far as I am concerned, I am simply testing the waters to see what COULD be produced. That means, finding the proper facilities and people to do the job. End of story.
You don't ask a dentist to build you a house...right? I am not a welder or an engineer. I am not qualified to assume anything regarding this type of engineering. I am however, intelligent enough to ask questions. THAT is exactly what I am doing.
More to come. Stay tuned.
EDIT: The intention of this thread was to question the cost of fabricating quality replacement control arms. No (and I do mean NO) disrespect was intended to those already producing these replacement components.
And guys - don't get all heated with SeaCay. He is a good guy who is simply making sure that nobody gets hurt. I can respect that. Please do the same.
C.
The benefits of this solution are:
- Mass production means less $$ required for materials up front
- Mass production means a fabrication run of a specific quantity is required (10 or more)
- Availability for proper materials and component knowledge
- Availability of top-of-the-line fabrication equipment (Water-jet CNC cutters, Robotic CNC welding, CNC Machining)
- Expert knowledge of Motorsports applications
- Proper Engineering certifications and Liability insurance qualifications.
To assume that this project would be prepared by amateurs is completely absurd. To have an automobile part that could be used on the street made that way is irresponsible, IMO. As far as I am concerned, I am simply testing the waters to see what COULD be produced. That means, finding the proper facilities and people to do the job. End of story.
You don't ask a dentist to build you a house...right? I am not a welder or an engineer. I am not qualified to assume anything regarding this type of engineering. I am however, intelligent enough to ask questions. THAT is exactly what I am doing.
More to come. Stay tuned.
EDIT: The intention of this thread was to question the cost of fabricating quality replacement control arms. No (and I do mean NO) disrespect was intended to those already producing these replacement components.
And guys - don't get all heated with SeaCay. He is a good guy who is simply making sure that nobody gets hurt. I can respect that. Please do the same.
C.
Last edited by Chads996; 12-02-2008 at 09:47 PM.
12-02-2008, 09:49 PM
#104
Nordschleife Master
Sounds like a big money loser to me
Next time my control arms need rebuilding, I will take Genikz suggestion and go for the steel arms I used to have before I converted.
Next time my control arms need rebuilding, I will take Genikz suggestion and go for the steel arms I used to have before I converted.
12-02-2008, 09:51 PM
#105
Thefu
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Rest easy boys. I am consulting Motorsports professionals with this task. I need this idea thought through and delivered with the proper professional engineering certifications and expertise. Thus, a professional race car component mass producer is my choice to find out if this is indeed feasable.
The benefits of this solution are:
- Mass production means less $$ required for materials up front
- Mass production means a fabrication run of a specific quantity is required (10 or more)
- Availability for proper materials and component knowledge
- Availability of top-of-the-line fabrication equipment (Water-jet CNC cutters, Robotic CNC welding, CNC Machining)
- Expert knowledge of Motorsports applications
- Proper Engineering certifications and Liability insurance qualifications.
To assume that this project would be prepared by amateurs is completely absurd. To have an automobile part that could be used on the street made that way is irresponsible, IMO. As far as I am concerned, I am simply testing the waters to see what COULD be produced. That means, finding the proper facilities and people to do the job. End of story.
You don't ask a dentist to build you a house...right? I am not a welder or an engineer. I am not qualified to assume anything regarding this type of engineering. I am however, intelligent enough to ask questions. THAT is exactly what I am doing.
More to come. Stay tuned.
EDIT: The intention of this thread was to question the cost of fabricating quality replacement control arms. No (and I do mean NO) disrespect was intended to those already producing these replacement components.
And guys - don't get all heated with SeaCay. He is a good guy who is simply making sure that nobody gets hurt. I can respect that. Please do the same.
C.
The benefits of this solution are:
- Mass production means less $$ required for materials up front
- Mass production means a fabrication run of a specific quantity is required (10 or more)
- Availability for proper materials and component knowledge
- Availability of top-of-the-line fabrication equipment (Water-jet CNC cutters, Robotic CNC welding, CNC Machining)
- Expert knowledge of Motorsports applications
- Proper Engineering certifications and Liability insurance qualifications.
To assume that this project would be prepared by amateurs is completely absurd. To have an automobile part that could be used on the street made that way is irresponsible, IMO. As far as I am concerned, I am simply testing the waters to see what COULD be produced. That means, finding the proper facilities and people to do the job. End of story.
You don't ask a dentist to build you a house...right? I am not a welder or an engineer. I am not qualified to assume anything regarding this type of engineering. I am however, intelligent enough to ask questions. THAT is exactly what I am doing.
More to come. Stay tuned.
EDIT: The intention of this thread was to question the cost of fabricating quality replacement control arms. No (and I do mean NO) disrespect was intended to those already producing these replacement components.
And guys - don't get all heated with SeaCay. He is a good guy who is simply making sure that nobody gets hurt. I can respect that. Please do the same.
C.