V2Rocket

simple solution, dont crash upsidedown

Bart

What's your problem bub? You're making as *** of yourself. Of that I'm sure.

Your assumptions are what is the problem. If Saratogo made the glass top, as I've clearly stated, why would you assume it does not have that logo. Kinda' asinine, IMHO.

Mine DOES have that logo....on the GLASS one. Along w/the Saratoga label and number. But no frame.

It DOES NOT have the LOF label on the PLEXIGLASS one. Since it's PLEXIGLASS.

Does that make sense?
Let me say it again:

The glass top I have has the LOF logo, just like the one in the closeup picture. But it has NO frame.

The PLEXIGLASS top has a frame around it but does NOT have the logo because it's NOT GLASS. Would you expect it to have a LOF logo if it's NOT GLASS?

Clear?

You've made this into a long, argumentitive thread by assuming no one has a plexi top w/ a frame because you have never seen one.

V2Rocket

no, bronze or grey.

Bart

Okay, so you want a picture of the Plexi top WITHOUT the LOF logo and to include the Saratoga lable, correct? No problem.

And if it turns out I DO have that top, you will make a $100 verifiable payment to Rennwish, verified by John D., right?

Bart

grey.

The glass one is bronze.

CPR

Bart,
Don't worry about this guy...if you back read his posts he argues with everybody about everything. He is just a kid who thinks he knows it all. Just read his posts...history speaks for itself. Moving on....

I had our corporate registrar (handles my company copyrights, tademarks annd patents) do some research on this and, my friend, you are indeed correct. Here is the accurate information in regards to plexi-glass tops manufactured by Saratoga for the Porsche 924/944 and one other Porsche model they did not identify by number...911 maybe?

1. In Feb. 1978 inventor Paul J. Ferrigan constructs first protoype of after market plexi-glass top. Constructed to be a one for one replacement for the current (at the time) Porsche 924.

2. On May 25th, 1978 with Mr. Ferrigan listed as the inventor and Saratoga Sunroof Corporation of Clifton Park, New Jersey listed as the Assignee,patent application #909,508 was submitted for approval to the United States Patent Office. In page 3 of the submitted documentation, Mr. Ferrigan explicitly defines the plexi-glass roof for use on the Porsche series cars (his illustrations show a 924...please see attachment, page 3 "description").

3. After the U.S.P.O.'S assistant examiner, Norman Stack, granted a preliminary approval, the application was then forwarded to the D.O.T. for safety and performance standards compliance. The D.O.T. appears to have approval somewhere around January of 1980. This is somehwat unnclear as the D.O.T. did not post their date of acceptannce, only their date of return, of the approved application.

4. In June 1980, Norman Stack recommended for U.S. patent,application #909,508 to his supervisor John J. Love. On September 6,1980 the law firm of McCormick, Paulding and Huber, as acting agents for the Saratoga Corporation, were notified via certified mail that their request for a patent was granted on September 2, 1980. The assigned patent number was #4220368.

5. In November of 1983 the required documentation was re-submitted to the D.O.T. to include the Porsche 944.

Although actual production numbers are vague, it appears that no less than 50 but no greater than 90 were ever produced.

I have attached the original patent application and have requestedmy registrar to forward ALL other information he was able to find today (I will post as I receive it). I hope this helps in clearing up any misconceptions.


Attachment 304067

Bart

Thanks for the info Patrick.

I was hoping (and still am) to get a $100 donation for rennwish out of this.

Appreciate the BU.

CPR

He will still argue it. Even with the patent and description papers I included...it's like talking with the wife somedays...



Cheers

PATRICK

CarbonRevo

If you read the posts, I clearly said...if there is proof, then so be it. I will accept it. Never once did you say your glass one had it, and not the plexi. You never answered any of my questions on whether or not the plexi had the LOF logo. Out of them 3-4 times, never.

I'm fine with it, since you have NOW come about and explained yourself. That's fine now..what was so hard doing that 5 posts ago?

So be it, if there's 50-90 examples, I would love to have one.

Like I said, a simple "My early does not have the LOF, but my later does" would have cleared all of this numerous posts ago. Only now did you come about.

Have fun!

944Fest (aka Dan P)

Bart owes us all pictures after all of this who-hah. As a self proclaimed expert (NOT) on saratogas, I offer this. I've held both glass versions of a saratoga for the power top 944 series side by side. Yeppers, glass for sure. If the glass broke out of an early frame could they plug it with plexi? Heck yea!!
Were there fiberglass tops for the manual roofs? Yes, I believe so! I was under the impression a manual top would not fit a power top. These patent docs offer proof of a manufacture to fit the early manual cars. I look forward to Bart's pics.

Apologies my old saratoga info site is gone, I should put it back up.


If I may play an impartial judge, in post 16 Bart made a blanket statement "frames are plexi" that is generally incorrect.
Post 17 Revo calls him on it, and is in my opinion correct, so he does not owe the $100.

BUT..in post 31 Bart redeems himself by reminding us he has manual tops. Discussion over, apples and oranges.

BUT-Revo said they are the same. I've heard otherwise.

We need more info on cross fitting manual tops to later cars with power roofs.

There HAS to be a bunch of guys who have had both early and late cars!!

Do tell folks, first hand experiences only, please!!

CarbonRevo

Dan- I own an '87 951 and the latest 944 possible, a '91 S2. I bought my top off rennlist for $700. I bought it knowing it came off a manual car and the PO had it on a power car. That's the only reason I bought it.

Every other top I have seen for sale has been stated as a manual top. I have compared them to mine and they're the same.

My top is a early manual just like Barts. I've also seen a late top in person. Answer me this...why would a late top be manual? Late cars were powered. Now, I do realize the late top could have actually been made while the early 944's were made. However if they weren't...why would a late version be made if the cars were power?

In the end, I'd be ecstatic if there WAS a plexi version. Like I said prior...I'd love to have one. There aren't hard feelings in this from my end, so don't take anything as such.

Bart

Well, you made the assumption it didn't and there's nothing I can do about that. But I think most, if not all, auto glass had somekind of logo on it, noting it's safety glass or tempered or suitable for DOT use. But you didn't know that I guess.

Didn't feel I needed to. I KNOW what it sitting in my basement, you're the one who claims otherwise. But gosh, sure glad you're fine with it. Does my heart good.

Sure, lets talk price.

I don't have an "early" or "late". I have no idea of the year of mfg. of either, nor to I care. They're both manual, they both fit my car but neither have a latching system like your pictures show. (So maybe yours' is a fake!)

So I still say, put your money up there and I'll take pix of both tops. Otherwise,......

Bart

Here's the exact quote:

Saratogo made them in both glass and plexi. The glass is frameless and the plexi has a frame.

I have one of each. Both for manual applications though.

I thought "manual application" would've been enough to indicate these were older tops but I guess not. If I had used the word "ONLY", then I would say you're correct and would stand corrected. But what I said was true. I didn't use any words or grammar that indicated a finite conclusion and I did that intentionally because I am NOT an expert on Saratoga roofs, only on the two I own.

So I say he still owes the $100 to Rennwish.


Well, actually, I mentioned that in #16 also. And notice I didn't say "All saratoga tops are manual because that's what I own." That would be nonsensical and misleading.

The tops I have will fit in the hole but the latches probably won't latch correctly and the top will not be secure. I've never tried putting my manual tops in a car with a powered roof because I've never had the need or desire to.

The latches that Revo shows on his top appear to me to be made for a powered top, even though his seller claimed otherwise. But there were several iterations of these from Saratoga so I have no doubt the latching system changed over the years.

This is a good idea Dan. There are quite a few tops out there that were made by Saratoga and when you're looking on Craigslist or Ebay, you sure want to be sure of what you're getting and if it will latch properly. The differences are significant enough. I would not put the plexi one I have into a 968 or even a series two 944 because the latches are chunky and wouldn't go well with the rest of the interior. But they blend right in with the 924S, early 944's and early 924's.

Like I said, I would be happy to supply pics and weights of both the ones I have if Revo boy coughs up the money for Rennwish.

944Fest (aka Dan P)

Ok, at least we've got it back to a reasonable discussion. Bart, excellent closing argument, I will note one "flaw"-
With this statement "Saratoga made them in both glass and plexi. The glass is frameless and the plexi has a frame."
You implied this was the normal manufacture from Saratoga. The wording is open to interpretation.
You kind of set the hook on Revo there. Yes, there was an explanation there, yours are for manual.

BUT-For some reason Revo feels they are swappable. His explanation is a good one except for this-
"I bought it knowing it came off a manual car and the PO had it on a power car. That's the only reason I bought it."

Anything a PO said or did is kind of inadmissible here. 3rd party, unverifiable, etc. I need a story from someone who plucked a manual roof out of an early 924, and walks it over to their 951 and plugs it in. What are the exact differences? (I PM'd Geoff, maybe he can help me out here)

If bracketry is the only difference, there may be a few nickles to be earned doing conversions!

Bart- for trying to help Rennwish, best cause I've ever seen.

ELLSSUU

I think you should seek a career in arbitration!