Stig's Official Engine Rebuild Thread
12-09-2005, 12:44 AM
#16
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The bores do tend to elongate a bit over time due to "rocking" back and forth a little bit. These engines are generally pretty good though.
Stig, if you want a hand gimmee a PM or something - I'd love to help out.
I'll even take the old block off your hands even if it has a scratched cylinder or whatever - I'll make it a sleeve/stroke project. No worries. I've been looking for another project block (long or short) for a while, preferably 3.0L but I'll take a 2.5 and make things happen with it eventually. . .
Stig, if you want a hand gimmee a PM or something - I'd love to help out.
I'll even take the old block off your hands even if it has a scratched cylinder or whatever - I'll make it a sleeve/stroke project. No worries. I've been looking for another project block (long or short) for a while, preferably 3.0L but I'll take a 2.5 and make things happen with it eventually. . .
12-09-2005, 10:27 AM
#18
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Ok, first sorry for not reading the full other thread and this one.
Why again are you not just buying another running motor?
There has to be HUNDREDS if not thousands laying around Cali....cheap.
Why again are you not just buying another running motor?
There has to be HUNDREDS if not thousands laying around Cali....cheap.
12-09-2005, 11:02 AM
#19
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Hey Andy,
My bores (147K) were excellent. I had them properly spec'ed out by a reputible P-car engine builder in these parts. The mileage is not a problem for these engines (assuming decent oil & changes). However, if you have a scuff/scratch on a cylinder wall I would be very careful about going forward with this block. I believe some people have used cylinders with VERY light scratches and been OK, but I've heard that is the scratch catches your fingernail, it will haunt you.
Second, I would really consider pulling the engine. It may seem like more work, but it will be much easier to do a high quality job. The main bearings may indeed be possible with the block in the car, but, boy, would it be tough. The crank is retained by a one piece girdle (great for motor strength) and the thought of unbolting this and getting the crank out and back in without damaging anything is intimidating. However, total piece of cake with the block on an engine stand.
Other advantages of removing the engine:
1) You can properly clean everything.
2) Much better chance of getting that infamous oil pan gasket on right.
3) Easy to put a new clutch in at the same time.
4) Easily put new motor mounts in when the engine goes back in (I think its easier to do that than replace the mounts with the engine in).
5) You can take the block to a shop to get properly spec'ed just like I did (piece of mind).
The drawbacks?
1) More disassembly time (may be offset by time savings on items that work easier once the engine is out.
2) You will take more stuff apart.
3) You will need an engine hoist and load leveller (not too much $ though).
4) You will probably end up spending more, because your "while I'm in there" list will grow!
Lastly, are you certain that the damage is a broken ring and not some foreign debris that may have slipped in there during the head gasket job? I know these in-the-car jobs are possible, but the chances of dirt getting in something are higher than when you have eveything laid out nicely and can put it together on an engine stand. Cleanliness is vital for a good build, and I think it is much easier to accomplish this engine out.
If the ring is broken, it would be interesting to hear what others think could be the cause. It's always nice to know the cause of problems so any necessary action can be taken to prevent a re-occurance.
Depending on how much downtime you can tolerate, the suggestion for a replacement engine can make good sense too.
Good luck!
My bores (147K) were excellent. I had them properly spec'ed out by a reputible P-car engine builder in these parts. The mileage is not a problem for these engines (assuming decent oil & changes). However, if you have a scuff/scratch on a cylinder wall I would be very careful about going forward with this block. I believe some people have used cylinders with VERY light scratches and been OK, but I've heard that is the scratch catches your fingernail, it will haunt you.
Second, I would really consider pulling the engine. It may seem like more work, but it will be much easier to do a high quality job. The main bearings may indeed be possible with the block in the car, but, boy, would it be tough. The crank is retained by a one piece girdle (great for motor strength) and the thought of unbolting this and getting the crank out and back in without damaging anything is intimidating. However, total piece of cake with the block on an engine stand.
Other advantages of removing the engine:
1) You can properly clean everything.
2) Much better chance of getting that infamous oil pan gasket on right.
3) Easy to put a new clutch in at the same time.
4) Easily put new motor mounts in when the engine goes back in (I think its easier to do that than replace the mounts with the engine in).
5) You can take the block to a shop to get properly spec'ed just like I did (piece of mind).
The drawbacks?
1) More disassembly time (may be offset by time savings on items that work easier once the engine is out.
2) You will take more stuff apart.
3) You will need an engine hoist and load leveller (not too much $ though).
4) You will probably end up spending more, because your "while I'm in there" list will grow!
Lastly, are you certain that the damage is a broken ring and not some foreign debris that may have slipped in there during the head gasket job? I know these in-the-car jobs are possible, but the chances of dirt getting in something are higher than when you have eveything laid out nicely and can put it together on an engine stand. Cleanliness is vital for a good build, and I think it is much easier to accomplish this engine out.
If the ring is broken, it would be interesting to hear what others think could be the cause. It's always nice to know the cause of problems so any necessary action can be taken to prevent a re-occurance.
Depending on how much downtime you can tolerate, the suggestion for a replacement engine can make good sense too.
Good luck!
12-09-2005, 11:39 AM
#20
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Assuming the block bores are out of round and that I find a badly scored and scratched #3 cylinder, I will get another block. I will also use this to my advantage of getting another clutch put on that motor too. I'm also going to re-use my rebuilt cylinder head on that other engine too. I can assemble it on a stand and have it in the car in 2 months pending I find a block really soon.
12-09-2005, 03:41 PM
#21
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"main bearings aren't on the list. The crankshaft is not coming out of the car."
Stig... I read this to mean you'r going to do this little job with the block remaining in the car... a lot of guys do serious engine work with the block still in the car and you probably have good reasons for doing it that way. But for me, I wouldn't even consider it. I say get the engine our on a stand where you take a good long look at that puppy. Pull it all apart slowly and inspect / clean everything meticulously. I'm no ace motorhead but I know its the details that make the difference between a good rebuild and soon-to-be parts car. Its a little more work now but later on you'll be glad you took the time. Just my 2 cents, good luck. bruce
Stig... I read this to mean you'r going to do this little job with the block remaining in the car... a lot of guys do serious engine work with the block still in the car and you probably have good reasons for doing it that way. But for me, I wouldn't even consider it. I say get the engine our on a stand where you take a good long look at that puppy. Pull it all apart slowly and inspect / clean everything meticulously. I'm no ace motorhead but I know its the details that make the difference between a good rebuild and soon-to-be parts car. Its a little more work now but later on you'll be glad you took the time. Just my 2 cents, good luck. bruce
12-09-2005, 04:30 PM
#22
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Andy, I have an engine stand (currently on loan to Eyal951) but once he's done with it you're welcome to it if you're still looking for one.
For starters, I'd say just drop the sucker out the bottom onto a roll-around dolly of some sort. We can always lift it onto a stand later (once they're pulled apart they're very light - I actually physically picked mine up and had someone bolt it to the engine stand while I held it). Of course the crank was out and head off.
For starters, I'd say just drop the sucker out the bottom onto a roll-around dolly of some sort. We can always lift it onto a stand later (once they're pulled apart they're very light - I actually physically picked mine up and had someone bolt it to the engine stand while I held it). Of course the crank was out and head off.
12-09-2005, 05:35 PM
#24
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Given how fast this happened I would strongly suspect a scuff. Either way I would not be interested in re-ringing the bottom end. If you gave me a choice between a factory short block with 100K miles on it (no damage, just normal wear) and the same block that had been re-ringed in a garage by a DIY'er I'd take the factory block, put in new rod bearings, and run it. I do not like to disturb the ring seal on a good-running motor, and the factory builds them very well.
If you look for a shortblock, one from an auto trans car might be a good choice. No thrust bearing wear and generally less instantaneous loads put on the crank.
-Joel.
If you look for a shortblock, one from an auto trans car might be a good choice. No thrust bearing wear and generally less instantaneous loads put on the crank.
-Joel.
12-09-2005, 05:48 PM
#25
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If you choose to drop the engine out I recommend a few things...for one, when we dropped the motor from the 912E, we lowered it with a jack onto "roll-arounds" with wood on top of them. "Roll-arounds" are small platforms with wheels which trash-cans are stacked onto to roll them around. They are usually made pretty well and can hold a substantial amount of weight. We used two of them and a big pice of 2-inch thick wood to try to distribute the weight. The ones we used were borrowed, so I'm not sure where you can find them. Perhaps a hardware store?
You will need extra hands to balance the motor.
You will need extra hands to balance the motor.
12-09-2005, 06:11 PM
#26
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Yes I have three furniture dollies, $15 each at Harbor Freight. I had two engines and a trans on them until I sold an engine. Very handy for storing motors under the workbench. Not so useful if you just need to scoot the motor out and another one in, cardboard is good for that (cheaper and less height needed.)
-Joel.
-Joel.
12-09-2005, 10:47 PM
#27
I have to agree with the list wisdom here. You really should remove the motor from the car. You can probably rent the engine hoist for not too much and you will end up doing a much better job with less chance of mistakes. If the cylinder is scuffed you'll be removing the motor anyway...
12-09-2005, 10:54 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by Jfrahm
Given how fast this happened I would strongly suspect a scuff. Either way I would not be interested in re-ringing the bottom end. If you gave me a choice between a factory short block with 100K miles on it (no damage, just normal wear) and the same block that had been re-ringed in a garage by a DIY'er I'd take the factory block, put in new rod bearings, and run it. I do not like to disturb the ring seal on a good-running motor, and the factory builds them very well.
If you look for a shortblock, one from an auto trans car might be a good choice. No thrust bearing wear and generally less instantaneous loads put on the crank.
-Joel.
If you look for a shortblock, one from an auto trans car might be a good choice. No thrust bearing wear and generally less instantaneous loads put on the crank.
-Joel.
BTW, i have access to a cherry picker and engine stand....no worries there.. it's just finding a good used block. Again if anyone has one in California, please PM me ASAP.
12-09-2005, 11:26 PM
#29
Race Car
I still have my 86 complete short block, which will work for what you are doing perfectly. Regasket the bottom end (and whatever else you want to replace) first with absolutely no downtime.
