Porsche-O-Phile

OK fine. Define your criteria. Do you really NEED a vehicle that seats 8, has 4WD capability, has towing capabilty, cargo room or what? In the case that a person HAS to have the ability to do ALL of the following you might have a case, however I'll address each below:

(1) 4WD
(2) Seating for four full-size adults
(3) Towing capability
(4) Hauling capability

I simply cannot imagine that so many people in America today have the NEED (not "want") for all these things. Also, I defer many of their arguements to one of my dearest guiding principles and observations, "never underestimate the capability of the human mind to rationalize. . . " How many people decide on a vehicle type by weighing their needs against the available choices? Probably not many. I'd bet the majority go "oooh look! An SUV just like my boss has! I bet I could put 22" spinners on it too! Gee, how will I justify getting such a thing - I know. . ."

And then come up with the "need" for 4WD to drive in the snow (not necessary), the "need" to have off-road capability (not necessary in the VAST majority of the cases), the "need" to tow stuff (again, how many of those spendy Cat IV trailer hitches have ANY use on 'em?), the "need" to haul anything, etc.

In my observations (and I realize this is unscientific), these vehicles MIGHT see one off-road excursion (including gravel driveways), a handful of "hauling" missions (maybe moving a son / daughter to college or helping pick up some sod at Home Depot) and few, if any towing jobs in their life cycle.

Point is, do we really need to be encouraging people to buy oversized, gas-guzzling, unsafe vehicles that have capabilities they're going to use for 1% (if that) of their useful lives? Now, one might say to that, "gee what percentage of the time is a Porsche used on the track?" Fair point, but a Porsche isn't intended ONLY for use on the track. It's intended to be a compromise between street / practical use and track / performance. Where on that spectrum the line is drawn depends significantly on the particular model. CGT? GT2? Much more "track" oriented. Boxster? 911 targa? Quite a bit more friendly for the street. In these cases, the features / design of the vehicles doesn't make them eggregiously less environmentally friendly, unsafe, or obnoxious. In the case of SUVs it does. That's the difference.

Back to your criteria. If one really does need a "utility" type vehicle for hauling construction equipment, boats, race cars, etc. then what's wrong with renting a truck? If it's a regular occurance (e.g. you work construction or move large pieces of furniture for a living) then I'd say it'd be worth buying.

For a while I had a full-sized GMC pickup truck that I got in a vehicle swap with my dad. He bought it to haul construction stuff around when he was doing the addition to his house, so there was a partially justifiable use for it (although I personally think it was more rationalization than real need and he could have had a lot of the stuff delivered). We also used to trailer a boat from MA to NH every summer. Again, partially justifiable but (1) we could've left it up there in storage every winter, (2) we could have rented a vehicle to tow with or (3) sold it and gotten a "real" boat (one with sails, which would've been my personal preference). Whatever - I'm just saying I got this thing in a swap and realized shortly after coming to L.A. that it was ridiculous and impractical. I got rid of it and bought a 944. No regrets. The difference is how many other people stubbornly either get or hold on to their vehicles when confronted with the realities that they DON'T address their needs? FWIW the 944 addresses mine fine. It's reasonably good on gas, fun, safe (except when surrounded by SUV-piloting nitwits that aren't paying attention), a bit distinctive and different (a personal choice, not really a "need"), and holds enough people and cargo to meet my needs perfectly. Could I substitute a Honda Civic and still meet my needs? Well. . . maybe yes and maybe no. Yes I would still get all the same functionality - I'd sacrifice the "nice" stuff and things I like about the car but don't necessarily need in much the same way I'm challenging these SUV-obsessed people to do. The difference is cost - I bought my 944 for under $3,000. You can't TOUCH a new car for that! The 951 I bought for under $7,000. Same deal. SUVs are overpriced so people are paying a PREMIUM for the luxury of being able to toodle around town in something that they really don't need and maximize threat and potential danger to others while depleting natural resources at a frenzied pace - because they "might" need to haul something. . . someday. . . At least my choice is justifiable based on cost and what I'm getting for the buck.

shmucklebuckle

Interesting little bit of banter going on here (the thread in general).

Matt, no one can think of anything [specific] it seems The only not-suv that I could think of is something like the Dodge Magnum. I don't know specifics, but I imagine the HEMI and frame are rated pretty high for towing. It only seats 5, but you might have enough room for a couch back there. And with the AWD setup and good tires, one could get around pretty well off road (I assume). So that's all I could come up with.

Oh, I remember Volvo wagons (850's I think) having a third rear facing row. Not sure about the other specs though (towing, etc).

Matt H

The Magnum might make a good choice.

I actually researched this about 9 months ago. The largest volume "cargo area" available in a wagon was an MB E class. It had roughly the same amount of volume as an Explorer (it also costs 3 times as much). There isnt a non-SUV with the towing capacity for a small boat (yeah, people do it but the car/tires arent rated for it). A mini-van comes pretty close but again, no towing. 4WD or AWD is available in a number of wagons, most are the smaller more sporty type wagon.

At any rate the SUV haters make it sound like you can go get a Taurus wagon and be just as well off. That isnt true no matter how you slice it. They always offer up: rent/buy a truck if you need to tow or haul. A fine alternative if you dont have to keep anything secure.

Simply put there is a market for them and some people hate that. I dont know if it is car envy or just stubborness. I could understand if people were bitching about the small SUVs that are really not capable of anything. Of course, they dont complain about them because they are ULEV vehicles.
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Porsche-O-Phile

The small ones I have less of an issue with (although the safety stats still kind of suck for them when compared to other vehicles for rollover and % of fatalities in other vehicles). The ones that totally irritate the hell out of me are the big obnoxious Lincoln Navigator / Ford Excursion / Chevy Yukon / H2 types that are used (commonly around here) to drive six miles to the day care center in the morning, to work on paved streets in stop-go traffic, and maybe to the grocery store or boutique on Saturday afternoon. Stupid.

The mostly "unused features" of a sports car (like a Porsche) enhance safety on the street. Better handling, braking capability, crashworthiness, etc. HELP things. The mostly unused features of an SUV create ****ty gas mileage, pollution, road hazards, and safety issues. These things HURT things (and where applicable - people).

The comparison between sports cars and SUVs falls on its face when confronted with that reality.

tifosiman

This is a paraphrase of a discussion I had with Matt earlier:

My SUV gets around 20MPG highway, and I need it to haul evidence (bikes and ski's) and files securely for work. Plus, it doubles as a hauler for all of my home-imrovement projects and landscaping materials. When it's not doing the above things, it's hauling me and others around with bikes on the rack on top and in the back. Or, if in the winter, hauling Xcountry skis, snowboards, and other stuff with myself and other in it.

What could someone suggest as a vehicle that would do the job that my SUV does, while remaining more "friendly"? Absolutely nothing. A minivan *may*, but how is it any better? Because it has smaller tires? A truck won't do it, I need the lockable security (plus would it get better gas mileage?, not likely). So, to summize, the SUV does everything I need well, gets decent gas mileage, and fits in a parking spot (ie, not a huge Hummer). I don't think me driving my Pathfinder is negatively impacting anyone any more than someone driving a sports car that gets close to the same economy and has less utility. Unless the root cause of the problem is that my SUV is bigger than a sports car and harder to see around when someone is tailgating me.

Its funny. I have people telling me I am irresponsible for having an SUV, but while I am riding my bicycle to work on public streets I have people that yell at me from their cars and throw things at me because I make them slow down or go around me, or for no reason at all. Here I am being the ultimate tree hugger, expending human energy to get to work and keeping the environment clean, while getting exercise. Are people in cars that opposed to vehicles that are smaller or larger than theirs? Apparently I just can't seem to make the right choices in my life. I'm glad that others know better for me. Whew!

Sorry for the long rant, foul mood today after being hit with a full, sticky can of coke while riding into work.

Porsche-O-Phile

Damn dude, that sucks. Good deal on being able to cycle to work - I used to be able to do that at my old job and miss it! I used to leave at the same time as one of my co-workers who lived about 2 blocks from me and INCLUDING the time it took me to hit the men's room, don my "non-work" clothes for riding (usually just shorts & a t-shirt), go downstairs, unlock my bike, etc. I'd beat him home EVERY DAY (he drove). Kinda' made me laugh.

Geez. I need to find a closer job to home. I miss that.

BTW I always yield to cyclists. I've been on the other side of that one enough times to know how big of jackasses drivers can be to them!

ApexCars

Good luck renting a vehicle to tow with. Every rental company I know of expressly forbids you to tow anything with their trucks because of increased liability and vehicle damage.

As far as what I need, not want, out of the vehicle: I often need to carry myself, wife 2 kids, and our live in nanny, stuff for soccer games, camping trips, etc. Tow trailer for ATV's, motorcycles, bikes, whatever. Pick up furniture, rugs, lumber from Home Depot, protect that stuff from weather and being stolen. Take LONG trips with the family, our stuff and a trailer full of stuff. Also, many times, take my parents or my sister and her family with us on the trip. Do all of this comfortably and with as much safety for my family as possible.
I'm not gonna worry to much about the safety of the people in other cars, motorcyclists with no helmets, jay-walkers etc. If you are living in fear of the other vehicles in your area, maybe you need to pick another vehicle to be driving.

Porsche-O-Phile

The problem with that logic is it then inspires exactly the kind of idiotic "arms race" we now have. "Gee honey, we ought to buy Suzy that three-ton SUV so if she gets in an accident with one of those 2-1/2 ton SUVs she'll be okay". The problem with this is then it becomes a game of "oneups-manship" where the goal is NOT safety gained by protecting yourself through DEFENSIVE DRIVING (remember that?), or well-designed vehicles designed to absorb impact, but instead by inflicting maximum damage on the other party. Just make it bigger and screw engineering! You're telling me it's socially responsible to get into this kind of pissing contest where the objective is to kill the other driver by progressively creating more and more unsafe vehicles? Please.

At least here in L.A. we just SHOOT at the other drivers and save all the inconvenience! Geez. Just cut through the crap and start pullin' triggers! Better for the environment too (unless you miss your target and the lead slug goes into the river or a tree).

It sounds like your needs could be addressed quite nicely with a van, minivan, or larger sedan (something on the order of a BMW "7" series). That's assuming you carry all that stuff and all those people at once. Do you really, or is this just more of the same rationalizing B.S. I pointed out above?

ApexCars

Really, where's the tow hitch on the 7? I'm not advocating trying to build increasingly larger vehicles, (I don't have an Excursion or a Suburban) and that arguement is ridiculous. I don't believe car manufacturers are building larger cars and trucks to try and run over the competitors car as you seem to suggest. They are building larger cars for the convenience for people that do all of those things at the same time. Yes, I sometimes do all of those things at the same time but no not usually. I could squeeze all 5 of us in a car, I could haul some things in a small truck and even tow most of what I need to with a small truck and then get a minivan for when more than just my family want to go somewhere. But I prefer to do all of those things with one SUV.

I understand that a big SUV does more damage to others in an accident, I am also aware that they burn more gas and pollute more. When hydrogen powered SUV's become available I would be glad to buy one as long as it will do what I need. I have owned van's before, both mini and maxi and I feel that most SUV's handle better than most vans. I don't disagree with what you are saying, I just want you to understand that there are some very good reasons to own an SUV. Those reasons may not be applicable to you but they are still valid reasons. If they weren't no one would buy them, despite just wanting them. I WANT a Corvette Z06 but since it would be extremely impractical for me to buy one, I don't have one.

Geo

Yeah? So what? You're not passing modern smog standards. The 944 could not pass the standards my 2000 328i must meet. No state that I know of makes 20 year old cars meet the same standard as a current production car. I'll bet you your 944 puts out at least 5x the pollution or more as a new car.

This thread has become really stoopid.

Matt H

Did you know that having the air pressure set correctly in tires will raise the MPG on most cars by a minimum of 5%. How about that every day people are bamboozled into thinking that rolling resistance can increase MPG when, in fact, air pressure can solve that rather simple problem.

The argument is either: SUVs kill people (which I dont think you can find facts to support), SUVs hurt the environment (which would also be near impossible to support with facts), or I dont like SUVs. #3 is the option, it is an emotional argument not based in fact.
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Legoland951

The SUV scene in S. Ca. is probably much different from where the rest of you guys are in Texas or back East. I can only speak from my own experience in this part of the country. Every other vehicle is an SUV. Most of the time there is only ONE person in it. It NEVER snows here. It normally rains less here in a year than elsewhere in a week (no mud when you go offroad). It is much more of a "trendy" thing to own a SUV here with 22 inch chrome wheels than for practical purposes and the "stereotypical" drivers are either people who want to feel safer (maybe because they had more than their share of wrecks from lack of skill), or they are power tripping (I can run you off the road and my third leg is bigger than yours) type of guys. I dislike the attitude of a stereotypical owner of SUVs in S. Ca. more than I dislike vehicle itself. I know it does not apply to everyone but unfortunately, my brother in law is one of those people talking on the phone, don't know the first thing about a vehicle and its capabilitiy including emergency braking, and not paying attention while he drives type of driver. My sister drove that same SUV through a red light not realizing its red and hit 4 cars in the intersection full speed. Luckily no one was killed. As far as towing is concerned, the Explorer uses an overdrive pinto transmission and can barely haul its own weight, thus the high failure rate according to the transmission shop I deal with and they work on these transmissions enough to be able to recite possible failed part numbers by memory (also, brother in law is having tranny problems at 120k and my best friend's mom had 2 trannies go out in less than 100k miles - both explorers and neither one tow). The GM versions use a better tranny for hauling but how many people haul a boat or car trailer (which HAS to be attached to the towing vehicle or it will be towed in L. A.) all the time? Space here is an expensive commodity and unless you pay for storage, you will have to tow your trailer or boat whenever you drive your SUV. How many people are like me with a whole bunch of cars and a dedicated tow vehicle with trailer on it full time? Probably less than 1 percent of SUV owners here.

As for doing what an SUV can do, I hauled the motorcycle in my avatar with my 86 toyota van. Not ONE SUV will do that (with bike fully assembled and upright) from what I can see. It seats 7 people when all the seats are in it. How many SUVs have 3 rows of seats? We drove that thing from CA to Colorado to pick up the bike in the worst snowstorm of 2003 through 650+ miles of snow with the bike in the back (past 24 rolled over vehicles - including 11 SUVs and 1 semi that was halfway off a bridge and half way on while the driver was helicoptered out causing a dead stop traffic for 4 hours). My van is not a 4WD but they are out there. No one buys them out here because there are no "off road" places here in L. A. and just about everything is paved. You have to drive 3 hours out just to find "off road". As far as towing is concerned, the "best selling" SUV will break trannys all day long if you tow anything and I rather have a full size van to do my towing or a dually truck for anything heavy like a boat.

luckett

practicality at it's finest...

Redlyne_mr2

You'd think that since you are all Porsche owners you would have an understannding for efficiency and a more european way of thinking. This isnt a corvette forum so Im amazed with some of the attitudes. Only in the Americas do you see people driving huge massive SUVs. Very very few people actually use their SUV on a regular basis for hauling. Whenever I see an SUV its some soccer mom driving 20 over the speed limit with her kids in the back watching a movie on the DVD. In Quebec where there is a heavy european influence all you see are nice euro wagons and for those who need a bit more room to haul large items they use little utility trailers. I swear, evertime I see someone driving an H2 I just want to kick the owner in the face.

ApexCars

Legoland: I'm not sure what you are calling an SUV if you don't think you can tow anything with them, their towing capacities are very similar to, or higher than, comparable sized trucks. Also, many SUV's have three rows of seating. My SUV has seating for 8. And I don't think anyone here is saying they need an SUV for off-roading. Going off roading in a full size SUV is kinda like trying to turn a 3/4 ton diesel into a drag car. If you want to do any serious off roading, you need something small like a Jeep wrangler. Most SUV's aren't even 4X4's. I really enjoy my SUV, no, I don't tow something everyday but I often tow some serious weight (ie. 3 Harleys, or two off road bikes and 2 ATV's, or 23 ft. center console fishing boat and gear, or 30 wooden fence panels and 15 bags of concrete, etc.) I would not feel comfortable towing those loads behind a mini-van. And of course I had five or more people in the truck with me while pulling most of these loads. An SUV is no more dangerous or polluting than a full size truck. They are built on the same frames, have the same engines and usually handle better because of better weight distribution, yet you all seem to act like trucks are fine.

It seem to me, that you have more of an issue with some type of stereotypical SUV driver than anything. I'll agree that there are plenty of a@@holes with these vehicles. I had a neighbor with a 4X4 diesel Excursion that was lifted at least 6 inches, had offroad tires and lights, heavy duty winch, a-pillar gauges, built suspension, heavy duty roof racks, etc. I never once saw it dirty, and he washed it about every other day. He had to use a step ladder because it was so tall and he was so short. My best friend also has a 3/4 ton diesel that he thinks is a drag car. He put chips, intake and exhaust in it and now thinks it is "rocket fast." He actually thinks it is faster than most sporty cars. He goes around saying things like, "It makes 350 hp, and 325 lbs of torque and I'm running 22 lbs. of boost. That BMW only makes 227 hp. I could take 'em from 60 on the highway." When I first showed him the 951 he said, "How much boost does it make, I'm making 22 lbs." Then I let him drive it. He shut up after that.