Legoland951

I am talking about Ford explorers, which is probably the best selling SUV in the world. The 98 my brother in law only seats 5 people and has 4 doors. I believe most people agree that is what most people would call an SUV. I don't believe a 5.8L v8 is an option for the explorer nor the truck tranny that goes with it.

WHAT GETS ME MAD IS I JUST GOT REAR ENDED 30 MINUTES AGO BY A DURANGO. An inattentive driver bashed in the trunk of the e36 318IS I was in at 5 miles per hour. It didn't even push the BMW bumper in because the bumper sits so damn high and I bet the damage will come out to $1500 - $2000.

Oh well, another typical day in S. Ca.

Porsche-O-Phile

Damnnation Frank, sorry to hear. Didn't you just have some other bozo hit you not more than two months ago?!?!

Anyway, this just exemplifies my point.

All these ardent defenders of SUV "culture" really crack me up. Here's a news flash people - most people in contemporary American society today lead a very sedentary lifestyle, especially compared to prior generations where much of the farming, agriculture, production, industry, etc. were done locally and by hand. Also, families on average tended to be far larger. Guess what? We didn't have gas-sucking, obnoxious, unsafe SUVs then and we seem to have developed as a society just fine. Then again, given some of the attitudes here like "anyone that doesn't like SUVs is an ignorant stuck-up jerk" maybe we didn't develop as a society; maybe we regressed.

Unless you're a general contractor, you probably have little need for a truck OR an SUV - there's this wonderful thing that most building materials suppliers have called "on-site delivery". Ever hear of it? Even if you ARE a G.C., more often than not you're not getting the materials and things yourself; you're subbing it out and supervising. Once in a while perhaps, but not likely.

It's rationalization people - suck it up and face it. There's no "need" for an SUV in 99.99% of the cases. Period. The ends do not justify the means either.

tifosiman

I see Frank's point (sorry bout that incident there............ )

However, Jeff, it seems that we keep going round and round in circles on this. We all get the fact that you don't like SUV's for some reason or another. Truth is, some of us need them for our lifestyle and/or business, and frankly I don't see where a truck or minivan or some other POP-approved vehicle is going to be any better (for me, others, or the environment). As far as you comment about past generations doing just fine, they had big trucks, big cars, big stationwagons, etc, that all used more gas than my SUV and probably ran less clean. I'd also venture to say that they weighed as much or more, and were less safe in a crash (no ABS, no Airbags, no crumple-zones, no a-pillar testing standards, etc.).

That being said, I am done with this discussion. I understand that you just don't like them, and hopefully you understand that some of us need them and shouldn't have to justify our ownership of them, much like a Porsche owner should not have to justify why they own an impracticle two-seater sports car.

hacker-pschorr

Your wrong - I've pointed this out at least a dozen time to you already, here I go again. I know at least 2 dozen people who's life revolves around going fishing - that requires a boat. Do you know how they get their boat to the water? Sure that is one or two days out of the week. So what? They still need it. So by your logic they should buy two vehicles?

How about my father - he does about 30 shows a year (GM for a building company). There is not a car on the market that could carry all of his stuff.

Every single person I know with an SUV would have to sacrifice either their hobby's or job if they did not own an SUV. Maybe that is just a Wisconsin thing, dunno. But until you sell your Porsche and buy a Toyota Prius, by your own logic, your not any better than they are.

I'm close to having the time and money to travel to 4 out of state tracks multiple times with my 928. Guess what, I'm SUV shopping to tow it. I'll also sell the Audi and make the SUV my daily driver. Would you prefer I drive my track car with no CATS 400 miles to Joliet vs my SUV? The SUV will get better gas mileage than my track car.

How about my sister with one kid and a Chevy Yukon – she doesn’t need that big of a truck you say. Ok smart-guy, where are the two 210lb Great Danes supposed to go the 4 days a week she takes them to the kennel? Should she have two cars? One for moving the dogs and another for the non-dog days? Yea, that’s a bright idea. She’s about to pop out another kid, is she close to justifying her SUV now?

Come out for a weekend in GB – you’ll see Caddy SUV’s towing full loads all day long. Later that day you’ll see that same SUV at Red Lobster with only two people in it. I do agree a lot of people could get along just fine without an SUV. Not to mention an SUV is far safer for everyone than any min-van out there. They are built better, stop better, and even handle better. Mini-Van’s are dangerous in my book.

Porsche-O-Phile

Do these people NEED to go fishing? Is it their livelihood? If not, then they're doing it as a CHOICE - a recreational choice and it falls into the category of a "want", not a "need". No different than the fact that I want or like to drive a 944 as opposed to a Toyota Camry.

Hobbies and lifestyle can adapt to one's conditions. Growing up, there was an extended period of time where my family had NO cars - we made do and survived and got through it. You don't NEED one. Yes they sure as hell make life easier and convenient, but I think the word "need" has been diluted in this discussion. All this talk about "I NEED to carry 50 people, twenty 50-pound sacks of rice, thirty bags of portland cement and my German Shepard up a dirt path on the mountainside in the dead of winter while towing my boat" is just bull. Seriously. There's ways to work around it - people just choose not to. Instead they choose the easy path (which in itself isn't wrong) but in doing so, essentially say "f*ck everyone else". This is the "socially irresponsible" part and the primary point to which I take objection.

The ends are being used to justify the means and it just doesn't wash in my book. Without these vehicles everyone would be better off, safer, and maybe just maybe the oil and gas prices would be a tad lower and Ford and GM wouldn't be sliding downhill towards bankruptcy. It's the MENTALITY of these things that's offensive as well as the inherent safety and environmental problems. It's the fact that some people feel their personal preferences / desires / wants outweigh everyone else's safety that irritates me. To some, apparently their "need" to carry around (occasionally) a few extra pounds of groceries or an extra person justifies endangering my life and the lives of everyone else on the road? WTF? How do you expect me to react?

As stated above there are two choices - either get a bigger vehicle and get caught into the retarded "arms race" of escalating bigger and more destructive vehicles under the illusion of protection they provide or roll the dice every time you get in your car that you're not going to be killed by some inattentive, cell-phone yammering soccer mommy or self-important road warrior business type or Suzy the newly-licensed 16-year-old with mommy and daddy's Cadillac Escalade that they can't handle. Check the DOT web site and read the study on fatal accidents in SUVs - they're something like 600% more likely to KILL the passengers of the other vehicle than any other vehicle type. It's ludicrous.

And these people call ME stuck-up when they're the ones saying their "need" to go fishing (and consequent "justification" of an SUV) outweighs my need to EXIST?!?! Come on. THAT'S stuck-up. "Oh but I'm a good driver". Uh-huh. Right. So am I but I'm also human and I've been in a couple of wrecks myself - one of them blatantly my fault. At least I was in a vehicle that didn't pose an eggregious risk to others and everyone walked away from it. Had I been driving an SUV I'll bet not everyone would've been so lucky. In fact, I wonder if the NHTSA and DOT would have ever even approved half the SUVs out there at all if it weren't for the fact that the governments were making so much money off 'em in sales, licensing and fuel taxes. Makes one wonder, doesn't it. . .

The ones that really crack me up are the ones that say "I need an SUV to carry around my four kids". The same four kids that you want the best for right? The same four kids whose world and environment you're helping to destroy? OK right. Uh huh. Tell me more.

Look, I realize as human beings we're GOING to have an impact on our environment. We didn't ASK to be here, we got put here as a result of circumstances and decisions made by others (our parents). There's nothing we can do about it short of MITIGATING our impact on the world around us and trying to make our society safer, more enjoyable and more sustainable for everyone. With regards to the SUV issue - if people HONESTLY can say they've done this and STILL have no guilt and shame over their decision (excluding the chest-beating morons that will get belligerant and spout "I'll drive whatever the hell I want") then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I'd still LOVE to hear their arguements though - never forget, the human mind's potential for rationalization is phenomenal! Either that or they have no sense of conscience whatsoever. I'd sure be interesting to hear.

Someone give ME a reason why they're N-E-C-E-S-S-A-R-Y. Please. Anyone.

And yes, I can't stand the "image" of them and the stereotypical SUV-driving nitwit out there. That IS admittedly part of this, but primarily it's about safety, environment, and overt demonstration of red America's propensity to put its own ostentatious preferences first and consideration for their fellow man, planet or any other cause that isn't directly linked to their own egoes or wallets firmly on the back burner.

Sorry for the rants - really. I know this is something of a sore spot with me and these vehicles just really chap my *** about what they say about our culture and its values. I'm also going to try to stop posting to this thread; I've said my peace on it and people can take it or leave it. I'd rather get back to more friendly and positive disucssions around here anyway. Peace out.

hacker-pschorr

POP - read again - I gave you plenty of reasons why it's necessary. My Brother-in-law and my Father would not be able to do their jobs without their trucks, PERIOD.

Most of thost fisherman are also construction workers. Sorry charlie - most of the sites they work on are not car friendly. Trust me, my Quattro had to be pulled out by one of thse useless SUV's one day - I was doing some computer wiring on a new house. It wasn't even that muddy.

Sure my sister and bro-in-law could sell their dogs or shove them into a Focus. I'm pretty sure the Vet wouldn't agree to that idea.

Plain and simple - there is more of a need for SUV's in this world than 944's. 944's (or any sports car) do not serve one useful purpose in this world, not one. Sure a lot of SUV's are in the hands of poeple that could get by with a Wagon, so what. EVERY Porsche owner can get by with a non-Porsche. It's that simple.

Revvin_911S

I also see locations in many posters sigs that are much more rural then CA. In any city an SUV is impractical. In CA where the whole southern half of the state, and the western part of the northern half is paved, there is just no need. Yes, there are some people who need a SUV to haul their boat/ 4 wheeler/ trailer/ materials for home improvement projects/ whatever, VERY few of them live in or around the big cities. Here in CA, arguably one of the biggest markets for SUV's, there is absolutly no need. We are talking about people who live in large cities, as in not one square inch of unpaved land and bumper to bumper traffic. This means your SUV is just taking up space and making the traffic problem worse. They aren't hauling anything, nor will they ever, and there is not a lake in sight to be hauling that boat to. The vast majority of people are burried in suburbia where their house looks exactly like the one next to it, and NOBODY know how to fix their house, let alone needs to be running around hauling materials for some "home inprovement" project. Here let me help you out, around here a home improvement project means figuring out what you want, then calling someone to come build or fix it for you. Buying dirt for some plants in the back yard is a big as it gets, and I can fit a few bags of dirt in the trunk of the 911. SUVs aren't inherently bad, they are simply not being put to their full use in 99% of ownership situations. And no matter what anyone says, they ARE a road/safety hazard. They are so insulated the drivers forget about the outside world. You can't see smaller passenger cars / motorcycles, and they block other peoples view of the road. Some huge ford parked next to me the other day with those big open rims on it and I couldn't help but notice the size of the brake disks. Pretty much the same size as those on my 911. Lets think about this for a moment, that huge 5k lb. SUV has the same amount of brakes stopping it as my 2.4k lb 911? There is no way that is safe. What about when it is all loaded up with gear and a boat ( like we know all SUV owners do)? Now you are talking about a mass of iron weighing in at around 8-10k lb. hurling down the road with roughly the same amount of brakes to stop it as my TINY little car? Anybody trying to say that this is a safe situation needs to re-examine things. So for those of you living in a fairly rural part of the country who are really putting your SUVs to use, rock on. For anybody driving around Sacramento/San Fransisco/East Bay/LA or any equivent area in a SUV, you suck. And for the lady who almost hit me on my motorcycle yesterday while she swerved into my lane whilst eating a burger, drinking Starbucks, and turned ALL THE WAY AROUND yelling her kids, YOU are the problem, please go die quietly and leave the rest of us in peace.

Legoland951

I am going to take pictures of the pearl white escalade, the avalanche, and the H2 hummer all with 20+ inch chrome wheels and ground effect kits parked at my 200yd long street. One even has spinners. I am sure they handle very well and haul lots with those low profile tires towing a trailer or a boat. The mentality of people on SUVs are different here in S. Ca. and is probably why feelings towards them differ from people who actually use their SUVs for what they are made to do. For hauling a race car on a trailer hauling a crew of 4 with some tools, picnic supplies, and ice chest, there is nothing better than a SUV. This is the reason why I have my 96 Bronco 4x4 with a 5.8L engine. It is used 100 percent of the time for hauling people, a trailer and a car or cargo AT THE SAME TIME. However, its only driven less than 2000 miles a year. The registration is great for an SUV because its $40 a year instead of $130+ for a truck because they charge "weight fees" like if a truck weighs more than an SUV. California stupidity.

streckfu's

Redundant.

Disclaimer: Refering to the politicians and not all of the people

Porsche-O-Phile

OK I hate to resurrect this thread, but I just came across this and it's utterly hilarious and pretty much sums up my point. Tongue-in-cheek. Enjoy.

http://www.daveheinzel.com/suv/

Play the "oil spill" game. Fun stuff.

stuka

Sounds like my kind of guy. It IS a VW truck.

Before the Boxster and VW truck craziness, Porsche used to mean sports cars.

Now it's just some stupid car company like everyone else.

And save me the they need the cashola speech. They have already gutted the regular 911's and made them into poseur cars by sticking that track unworthy, not raced by PAG, piece of sh*t M96/7 punched out Boxster engine with wet sump. What the hell? I used to be able to walk in to a P car dealership in 1997, pay 70K, and drive away in a 911 with a 964 block that can actually be raced without the blue smoke and oil starvation problem.

They need the money, for what? Certainly not for delivering better products, and CGT doesn't count. If they had made GT2 and GT3 priced at 125K and 80K respectively, then fine, but they didn't. They wanted 180 for GT2, and 100 for GT3.

And now the rumor of sticking the M97 in the 997 Turbo and GT3, might as well shovel the last bit of dirt over the grave, Porsche the sports car company is dead and gone, long live the VW truck and tippy magic tronic C4S cab poseur car company.

tifosiman

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE CLOSE THIS IDIOTIC THREAD.

pearldrum944

Then why "waste" time on this site? You obviously don't like porsche, why post on a site full of porsche enthusiasts. And what did they need the money for? How about the lmp2?

daniel951

i know when i get older and have a family i would like to have a cayenne to haul the family around or even carry things that are needed. IMO

stuka

Uh, I have a 996 Turbo with the M64?

Now, am I allowed to criticize them? Obviously, I like my Turbo, but that doesn't mean that I agree with where the company is going. I still think they can do without the VW truck, since all that $$ that they are making doesn't seem to have translated into anything nice and affordable for normal enthusiasts.