pairoducs

I am used to driving a Cayman S on the track and will be switching to a 1988 Carrera. Anyone have experience driving both a modern and classic 911 on the track care to provide some insights on what I should do differently, if anything.

MUSSBERGER

I'm no expert but here ya go.

The first thing you are going to notice is its going to feel a lot faster. No more Sunday drives like your Cayman S. Do you have a LSD? Try to get the *** end loose somewhere safe so you can get the feel of it. I didn't track my 987 a lot but it sure seemed to want to come around quicker when the rear broke loose. My SC seems to be more controllable. Make sure your brakes are good (lots of pad, fresh fluid, brake lines etc) The Carrera will stop great but you can have some fade so anything that you do to kick that can down the road will help.

Below is a quote from one of the fastest guys I've ever seen in one of these cars after he critiqued a video of mine. Good advice.

"One other thing I noticed is that you never early apex. That's not bad in itself, but there is tons of speed to be found with our cars by nudging the car into early apex while sliding the rear a bit (condition 1 without condition 2 will lead to running out of track at exit... Sliding the rear means you can get on the throttle as early as the front cleared the corner... It's a bit like rally racing. I think that with your car's wider rear end and tires it could be harder to do though."

Have fun. If you can drive one of these cars fast you can drive anything fast.

g-50cab

Don't lift.

Take just about everything you know from driving the cayman and throw it out the window.

Only brake when you are headed in a straight line.

Accelerate to plant the rear end.

Feel the rear end start to step out - put your foot in the gas!

Don't just drive the car, feel the car (and while the cayman is great - it's a little numb) you'll be able to feel what the carrera is doing.

Good brake race pads, good decent fresh fluid are a MUST.

and don't lift.

ricster

Don't lift.

Thats the word of the day with these cars....when in doubt accelerate

KILRWAIL

I'd suggest you experiment with different tire pressures, until you find a combination that feels stable. The rear end will feel loose if the pressure's too high, but when you get the pressures right you can confidently squeeze on more throttle when it feels loose back there and it will just grip and go. I also suggest you manage your brake rotor temperatures, particularly the fronts. I use Motul 660 and have added cooling ducts, to avoid any concerns about fading. Without any electronics to fall back on, the driving experience is like no other. Have fun!

whalebird

At first just find your line and try to smoothly hit all the alligator strips...find the corners of the car and you will find that you can place a 911 anywhere on the track you like. Forget all the rubish about the rear bias tendencies of the 911 and,once you feel the chassis working, do like MUSSBERGER states - get the car planted and steer with the throttle. The stright-braking is a good exercise, but, depending on your driving style, may feel comfortable late-braking into the corner a bit. Combined with a smooth heel-toe technique and confident knowledge of the 911, you will be amazed at how fast these cars can be. Fast in, slow thru, and fast out of the turns is how Vic Elford put it IIRC.
Good luck. You'll sell the Cayman after you start passing them in your 911.

JackOlsen

I've driven both and I've been surprised at the similarities. But then, I started with 911s, which made moving to the Cayman pretty simple. I'm not sure what sort of the bad habits the Cayman might encourage (it's pretty forgiving), but the basics will remain the same.

The good news is, once you master a pre-89 911, most any other cars are a breeze.

Carlo_Carrera

Okay, I am also no expert but I am going to go a little against the grain here and say you don't have to worry about lifting as much as some people here say so long as you are prepared, both mentally and physically, for what will happen when you do.

The best thing you can do to be ready for lifting and get a feel for the car in general is to go to a large empty parking lot when it is raining and drive around in a tight circle fast, and then lift. The back end will might come around quickly or it might not, it very much depends on how you car is set up and they are all set up differently. My '85 Carrera has a ton of understeer and it has saved my butt many times. I have driven other 911s that are not so forgiving. As you practice in the parking lot you can see that after you lift if you get back on the power the rear end will bite again and shoot the car straight. Now this is what you need to get comfortable with and if you do you will be able to take the advise given to MUSSBERGER above and use lifting the throttle to rotate the car and drastically reduce your lap times. Basically you dive into the corner setting up a slightly early apex and as you feel the car reaching it's cornering limit at the apex you can lift off the throttle, rotate the car, get back on the gas and away you go.

It is VERY important that you only do this throttle steering in slow corners. Never do it in medium or fast corners, unless you are Ayrton Senna reincarnated you will die quickly.

As far as braking goes you can trail brake with a 911 but again only after practicing and ONLY in slow corners and only if you are very smooth with your braking transition over to the throttle.

In medium and fast corners brake in a straight line before the corner. You will be faster the early you brake before the corner and getting back on the gas than if you try to brake hard later. It seem counter intuitive but it works.

Lastly make sure your car has been upgraded with turbo tie rod ends, lowered to European spec. and buy yourself some good R compound tires.

Have fun.

Ed Hughes

Make no mistake, the Cayman is much more forgiving than the 911. That said, the 911's are one of the best track platforms ever built. I ran a spec Boxster at our Patrick Long DE in October. I went in a bit apprehensive in that I expected to go spinning like a top if I overdrove it. It was very benign and sent out warnings when it was close to any sort of edge. I found I could slide the entire car a bit more than my 911.

The best advice: resign yourself to the fact that you should take a step back and realize you may not be driving the car as fast as your Cayman. That said, you'll get the hang of it.

misterbeverlyhills

What helped me the most when I got back into a 911 after 20 years of big front engine V8s was a ride with a good 911 driver on the course in his car. I have raced forever but was only too happy to learn a new line and braking points from guys who were driving these cars for the 20 years I was gone. You will most likely find plenty of really experienced 911 drivers only too happy to take you out. Ask around and watch the other groups to see who is really quick.

All of the above advice is great but paramount is keeping your foot down if the car gets loose, modern cars have a lot of built in understeer, especially yours, which is completely absent in a 87 Carrera. Don't lift is rule #1.

A final tip would be to go to Jack Olsen's post above and click on his links to laps he has taken here in CA on some good tracks, he is pretty quick in that beautiful black car.

Daniel Dudley

I would think after a Cayman S that an air cooled 911 might feel a little ponderous. Many describe the 911 as having understeer, but not turning in because of a light front end is a very temporary sort of understeer.

What makes a 911 interesting to drive is that you sometimes have to get it to turn in, and then you want to provoke a power on tail out controlled oversteer. The degree is up to you, but really where the understeer will show is in a really tight corner where you haven't put the brakes on or lifted. The oversteering tendancy is really going to show as sensitivity to throttle after the apex, or in large sweepers. This is in fact very much like a Cayman, but unlike The Cayman, it is going to be much more obvious before the limit is reached, and much more sensitive to over reaction in your inputs.

Mid engine cars always leve me with the impression that they are unflappable right up until the let go. 911s OTOH, are always talking to me, telling me this was a good idea, that was a bad idea, or that I just tried something without any setup at all, and now everything I do is now going to feel stilted and akward by way of compensation.

Everything a 911 does well is as a result of total premeditation and commitment to a corner. This is why a 911 likes to be driven as if taken by the scruff of the neck. Scruff of the neck driving means premeditated commitment and that you and the car know who is driving from way before you get to the corner. Once you are in control, and have gotten the car to turn in and have provoked a tail out attitude, you may have options. The number of options you have, and your ability to carry them out all depends on your skill and experience as a 911 driver.

This is where it gets interesting, and why it is never boring. Fats Waller said that nothing is impossible in the game of pool. 911s are like that. You concieve it, you do it, and it's all physics, but it is all on YOU. It is important to understand the principals, and you do not deviate, but you can manipulate. The limit is you.

pairoducs

Thanks for the tips. My local PCA DE director drives a older 911 and I am sure he would be kind enough to drive me around the track next time and show me the ropes.

My current driving style is to threshold brake, trail off the brakes as I turn in and then transition to throttle. Neutral throttle through the corner, and then I am on the gas at the Apex and quickly to maximum throttle as I unwind the wheel. It doesn't sound like I need to change a lot based on the comments with the exception that I could potentially turn in earlier and use the oversteer abilities to move the car around the corner. Is that correct?

I did have some recent skid pad experience with a modern Carrera and the correction to oversteer I was taught seems to be the opposite of what I need to do on the older models. I was taught as the rear end steps out to quickly turn the wheel in the direction of the slide and CHOP of the throttle. Sounds like that would be a mistake in my '88. Is that right?

Auto_Werks 3.6

That would be the end in your Carrera. I have gotten myself in trouble in a 911 before and been able to feather out of the throttle to help bleed some speed. Keep in mind at or near the limit, feathering out will most likely result in a slight off throttle oversteer. Your ability to feather rather than chop will allow you to control the slip angle of the car. You may be surprised at how much speed bleeds off when your slightly sliding an not on the power, it is certainly not a fast way to drive through a corner, and I have only been there after making one (or several) mistakes.

Auto_Werks 3.6

PS, the biggest grin I have ever had in my 911 was the day I learned how to pitch it in a little early, and ride it out on the power like the guys above are talking about. It cures a LOT of the light front end "problems".

Carlo_Carrera

Yes, your current driving style will work well with your 911. You might find that with your 911 you can squeeze on the gas a little earlier in the corner than with your Cayman. The earlier you get on the throttle the more the 911 will dig in, it is a great feeling.

As I said above, as you become more comfortable with the car you can practice lift throttle oversteer cornering in slow corners. And as others have wrote if you can perfect it it is the most thrilling aspect of driving and older 911 it can even be done with your Cayman S.

This is a little off the subject but if you watch this YouTube clip of Senna in an NSX at Suzuka you can see the way he pumps the throttle to help turn the car. You don't want to go that crazy with a 911 but the basic physics is the same. That guy could drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJs...rom=PL&index=3