GT4 RS Driving Impressions
08-01-2024, 08:48 AM
#1906
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My home track, Summit Point, is also pretty fast, and the data I’ve seen indicates that both cars will run about the same lap time.
4RS has less downforce, but also less drag, and both have about the same power/weight ratio.
The 991.1 Turbo S on regular Pirelli tires, no mods - a 'power car' - was only 1 sec off the time of the 4RS on this circuit:
991.2 Turbo S would be faster, 992 Turbo S faster still, and all of them even faster with Cup 2 and track alignment.
Last edited by Manifold; 08-01-2024 at 09:37 AM.
08-01-2024, 11:22 AM
#1907
track alignment, is not really possible on a turbo though unless you start to rip all the arms off. A novice will always be faster in the turbo cars.a pro always faster in the GT cars.
08-01-2024, 11:27 AM
#1908
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A pro at Spa was faster in 992 Turbo S on regular tires than 992 GT3 on Cup 2.
Last edited by Manifold; 08-01-2024 at 11:30 AM.
08-01-2024, 12:31 PM
#1909
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I turn upto a RMA Porsche day say, on my cups.2 90% of the cars are on ST disks and R spec tyres which are £2.5k a set. People like to win at track days other wise why spend £2.5k on tyres which last 150 miles ! the Porsche days here are full of fully tricked up cars (not real modded cars) but r specs and ST disks so much so I won't do an RMA day in the UK, it's too rich when all the cars arrive on trailers and have a back up team to keep swapping tyres !!. you even see 1/2 the Cars are full on MR spec cars with the £55k or £65k MR kits on them on top the the ST disks and R spec tyres.
As I stated track day drivers in the main are not that fast if we are honest about track day performance, so why does every car wear R spec £2.5k tyres which net you a second a mile. Seems every one wants that 2 second advantage a lap even though they are 10 seconds off a Pro lap pace in the 1st place ;-). I would not pay £2.5k for R 's to just do some fun laps with a few mates myself let alone an £55k 4RS MR kit to net me 0.5 seconds mile !
track days were more fun 20 years ago and more relaxed.
As I stated track day drivers in the main are not that fast if we are honest about track day performance, so why does every car wear R spec £2.5k tyres which net you a second a mile. Seems every one wants that 2 second advantage a lap even though they are 10 seconds off a Pro lap pace in the 1st place ;-). I would not pay £2.5k for R 's to just do some fun laps with a few mates myself let alone an £55k 4RS MR kit to net me 0.5 seconds mile !
track days were more fun 20 years ago and more relaxed.
Wow, UK trackday huh?
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VRShader (08-01-2024)
08-01-2024, 03:30 PM
#1910
Three Wheelin'
But he did say he did not like how it drove and thus could be faster with tweaks. he did not want the rear end going away from him and having to correct it, and thus no one really does we are all trying to dial that out the car. when you state "All those corrections that Randy is making" he don't want to be doing it !! he said as much.
I would not be dissing people for chasing a few extra seconds per lap at the track. As you say, a lot of people are doing it at your track, so there must be a reason. They must enjoy doing it and sharing the process with all the others doing the same. Working hard to achieve a goal and being successful at it creates a wonderful sense of accomplishment. Share that with your friends and vice versa, I call that priceless. The entire racing industry is built on that notion. Anyone ever spend 4-5 hours hitting a tiny ball into a tiny hole on the golf course and trying to shave off a few strokes. Well who cares about that? Many millions of people do and they spend billions of dollars in trying to do so.
Those last few seconds of improvement at the track are the absolute hardest to get. Once you have captured the low hanging fruit, you have to be dedicated to get the last few seconds. It is absolutely worth it for me and my friends to get a better handling and faster car with continued upgrades and practice. When the car is right, it will become even more amazing to drive. You will become one with the car as if it is an extension of your body. They don't come off the showroom floor that way. It takes work to achieve this, I am part way there, and having fun all along the way. Running a sub 2:00 lap at Eagles Canyon is only 2 seconds off the pace of our pro drivers. Jason Hart in his even better Clubsport race car will run a 1:55 to 1:56 I believe. So we are not 7-10 seconds behind the pros at our track.
Last edited by lovetoturn; 08-01-2024 at 04:06 PM.
08-01-2024, 05:48 PM
#1911
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Yes, we all know that the oversteer needs to be dialed out of Barry's car. I can attest that a few bolt hole adjustments on the bars will fix that. You add relatively larger front tires to get rid of the GT4 RS's understeer so of course you will move toward oversteer. That is an easy fix even at the track. My comments are not directed towards correcting the oversteer, but about driving at the top of the friction curve. Even when the handling is fixed, Randy will drive the wheels off the car, which will still necessitate making lots of small counter steer corrections. Less than in that video, but still lots of fun to balance the car at the top of the friction curve. The GT3, as everyone says, is less involving and just goes where you point it. Some even say a bit boring ..... not my words. The GT4 RS is very much alive and takes more work to wring out the performance from it. Older school technology that makes you a better driver if you are comfortable handling it. For me and my other 4RS friends, the challenge of modifying the car to make it even better is all part of the fun of ownership.
I would not be dissing people for chasing a few extra seconds per lap at the track. As you say, a lot of people are doing it at your track, so there must be a reason. They must enjoy doing it and sharing the process with all the others doing the same. Working hard to achieve a goal and being successful at it creates a wonderful sense of accomplishment. Share that with your friends and vice versa, I call that priceless. The entire racing industry is built on that notion. Anyone ever spend 4-5 hours hitting a tiny ball into a tiny hole on the golf course and trying to shave off a few strokes. Well who cares about that? Many millions of people do and they spend billions of dollars in trying to do so.
Those last few seconds of improvement at the track are the absolute hardest to get. Once you have captured the low hanging fruit, you have to be dedicated to get the last few seconds. It is absolutely worth it for me and my friends to get a better handling and faster car with continued upgrades and practice. When the car is right, it will become even more amazing to drive. You will become one with the car as if it is an extension of your body. They don't come off the showroom floor that way. It takes work to achieve this, I am part way there, and having fun all along the way. Running a sub 2:00 lap at Eagles Canyon is only 2 seconds off the pace of our pro drivers. Jason Hart in his even better Clubsport race car will run a 1:55 to 1:56 I believe. So we are not 7-10 seconds behind the pros at our track.
I would not be dissing people for chasing a few extra seconds per lap at the track. As you say, a lot of people are doing it at your track, so there must be a reason. They must enjoy doing it and sharing the process with all the others doing the same. Working hard to achieve a goal and being successful at it creates a wonderful sense of accomplishment. Share that with your friends and vice versa, I call that priceless. The entire racing industry is built on that notion. Anyone ever spend 4-5 hours hitting a tiny ball into a tiny hole on the golf course and trying to shave off a few strokes. Well who cares about that? Many millions of people do and they spend billions of dollars in trying to do so.
Those last few seconds of improvement at the track are the absolute hardest to get. Once you have captured the low hanging fruit, you have to be dedicated to get the last few seconds. It is absolutely worth it for me and my friends to get a better handling and faster car with continued upgrades and practice. When the car is right, it will become even more amazing to drive. You will become one with the car as if it is an extension of your body. They don't come off the showroom floor that way. It takes work to achieve this, I am part way there, and having fun all along the way. Running a sub 2:00 lap at Eagles Canyon is only 2 seconds off the pace of our pro drivers. Jason Hart in his even better Clubsport race car will run a 1:55 to 1:56 I believe. So we are not 7-10 seconds behind the pros at our track.
- There's a degree of competition even at DE/track days, so I can understand people wanting faster cars, trying to make their cars faster, and trying to drive better.
- If the car is understeering at corner entry, the driver may not be trailbraking enough. If the car is understeering at corner exit despite a high apex speed, the car may indeed need a setup change to make it more balanced.
- If the car is truly near the limit, there's likely some sawing of the wheel. The key is to make enough small corrections that you don't need to make big corrections.
- I've tracked the 991.1 GT3, 991.2 3RS, and 992 GT3, all pretty close to the limit. With the 991.1 GT3, I got within 1 sec of the lap time of a pro in the same car, but it was not easy, I was at the limit of my ability as a driver. For a real pro (paid pro), it would indeed be pretty easy, probably boring. For a non-pro driver, 992 GT3 will only feel easy to drive if you're not fast.
- 991.2 3RS feels like an extension of my body on track even in factory form, without mods. By comparison, the 992 GT3 feels a bit insulated to me, so I think it needs some work on setup.
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08-02-2024, 06:27 AM
#1912
Yes, we all know that the oversteer needs to be dialed out of Barry's car. I can attest that a few bolt hole adjustments on the bars will fix that. You add relatively larger front tires to get rid of the GT4 RS's understeer so of course you will move toward oversteer. That is an easy fix even at the track. My comments are not directed towards correcting the oversteer, but about driving at the top of the friction curve. Even when the handling is fixed, Randy will drive the wheels off the car, which will still necessitate making lots of small counter steer corrections. Less than in that video, but still lots of fun to balance the car at the top of the friction curve. The GT3, as everyone says, is less involving and just goes where you point it. Some even say a bit boring ..... not my words. The GT4 RS is very much alive and takes more work to wring out the performance from it. Older school technology that makes you a better driver if you are comfortable handling it. For me and my other 4RS friends, the challenge of modifying the car to make it even better is all part of the fun of ownership.
I would not be dissing people for chasing a few extra seconds per lap at the track. As you say, a lot of people are doing it at your track, so there must be a reason. They must enjoy doing it and sharing the process with all the others doing the same. Working hard to achieve a goal and being successful at it creates a wonderful sense of accomplishment. Share that with your friends and vice versa, I call that priceless. The entire racing industry is built on that notion. Anyone ever spend 4-5 hours hitting a tiny ball into a tiny hole on the golf course and trying to shave off a few strokes. Well who cares about that? Many millions of people do and they spend billions of dollars in trying to do so.
Those last few seconds of improvement at the track are the absolute hardest to get. Once you have captured the low hanging fruit, you have to be dedicated to get the last few seconds. It is absolutely worth it for me and my friends to get a better handling and faster car with continued upgrades and practice. When the car is right, it will become even more amazing to drive. You will become one with the car as if it is an extension of your body. They don't come off the showroom floor that way. It takes work to achieve this, I am part way there, and having fun all along the way. Running a sub 2:00 lap at Eagles Canyon is only 2 seconds off the pace of our pro drivers. Jason Hart in his even better Clubsport race car will run a 1:55 to 1:56 I believe. So we are not 7-10 seconds behind the pros at our track.
I would not be dissing people for chasing a few extra seconds per lap at the track. As you say, a lot of people are doing it at your track, so there must be a reason. They must enjoy doing it and sharing the process with all the others doing the same. Working hard to achieve a goal and being successful at it creates a wonderful sense of accomplishment. Share that with your friends and vice versa, I call that priceless. The entire racing industry is built on that notion. Anyone ever spend 4-5 hours hitting a tiny ball into a tiny hole on the golf course and trying to shave off a few strokes. Well who cares about that? Many millions of people do and they spend billions of dollars in trying to do so.
Those last few seconds of improvement at the track are the absolute hardest to get. Once you have captured the low hanging fruit, you have to be dedicated to get the last few seconds. It is absolutely worth it for me and my friends to get a better handling and faster car with continued upgrades and practice. When the car is right, it will become even more amazing to drive. You will become one with the car as if it is an extension of your body. They don't come off the showroom floor that way. It takes work to achieve this, I am part way there, and having fun all along the way. Running a sub 2:00 lap at Eagles Canyon is only 2 seconds off the pace of our pro drivers. Jason Hart in his even better Clubsport race car will run a 1:55 to 1:56 I believe. So we are not 7-10 seconds behind the pros at our track.
but people cannot get the last few seconds when they are 15 seconds off the pace already lol. it's all well and good getting a car to handle and that's gives the driver the confidence to push the car more, a £300 geo will do that to the 4RS to a point, what I find odd is people 15 seconds off the pace spending £80k on mods to then only be 13 seconds off the pace !!! the last 2 seconds will never happen with these owners, the full MR cars look great in the pit garage sitting on the ST and R spec tyres though :-)
I would never spend £2.5k on R spec tyres if I were still even 5 seconds off the pace of the local track pro. Just learn to drive 1st.
You are already under 5 seconds off a Pro which is bloody fast driving. it's rare to see that in the UK. I used to be top a 10% driver at a UK track day 25 years back, then goto europe and then find my skills in the bottom 10% lol in the main sorry UK guys :-) 90% are pretty slow. I am now are 54 also bloody slow :-) not sure why just lack the ***** to drive ***** out on a £150k road car. but I still want it to handle and give me confidence to find more seconds a lap. That's not money though the 4RS is plenty good enough with a track geo for my level, I would like 2 way shocks to balance the car more to my liking but that would be that.
people have to be real when it comes to times, lets take drivers skills 1 to 10, 1 being no clue 10 being factory paid Porsche drivers.
1-5 are noobs, they don't know the lines they don't in the main have a geo or spend any money 1-4 are on road tyres even. I actually don't like these guys on track they cause too many red flags, and just get in the way !!
Then we have level 10 well no ones that as Lars and Kevin are not at the tracks days I goto.
9 is next, again no one is that I class that as a current race driver who tracks a road car for a bit of fun or is retired. We see the likes of Tim Harvey and Jonny C at track days putting in crazy fast times. So no one is that level either on the normal track day.
That only leaves levels 6, 7, 8 which is the top track day drivers. I sadly am down from a 7 to a 6 level. it's rare to see level 8 drivers, maybe 1 or 2 per track day some time none. So the top 20% are still only at level 6's and 7's which is pretty slow:-) why then spend money to chase times when you really need to up your own skills to a level 8 driver. No one is going to be a level 9 or 10 driver other wise you would be getting paid to drive. I seen some of these guys in £250k fully modded cars and they are level 5 drivers you ni on hit the back of them every braking zone.
the issue then if you are a 7 or an 8 level is that last 2 seconds = 3x the wear on parts. I can lap and not wear parts and over take 70% cars on a UK track, if I am in the zone I can up that 2 seconds for 3 or 4 laps and then that's ok but the tyre and brake wear is crazy.
then you are talking costs of £3k a day on track over all for just a fun day out with a few mates, £5k if you are running R tyres. That's a Euro trip and a week away which I would rather be doing now days.
I doubt I'll mod my 4rS now. the new geo is ok, yes the car pushes a bit but who cares really, i need to up my level back to the 7 I was not the 6 I am now and that's just seat time not parts.
I still find track days odd, I gave up as i said in my late 20's as I was quite fast back then ,and then found them a bit dull to be honest as a road cars never really makes a great track car, you see the young guys now going though this window, you either give up or end up with a trailer and a car which only works on track.
I switched to sim racing which I did for 3 to 4 years (£12k gets you a full rig so the cost of 4 track days) and found that more fun than a track days to be honest, racing is racing after all and you race the top guys world wide. I only bought the 4RS as a retirement fun car and to have rekindle on track with it a bit, was not expecting it to have crap shocks lol !
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lovetoturn (08-02-2024)
08-02-2024, 06:34 AM
#1913
manifold this is key
"For a real pro (paid pro), it would indeed be pretty easy, probably boring. For a non-pro driver, 992 GT3 will only feel easy to drive if you're not fast."
thats a great line. people saying it's easy don't realise the car can go MUCH MUCH faster.
"For a real pro (paid pro), it would indeed be pretty easy, probably boring. For a non-pro driver, 992 GT3 will only feel easy to drive if you're not fast."
thats a great line. people saying it's easy don't realise the car can go MUCH MUCH faster.
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08-02-2024, 07:25 AM
#1914
The trouble with track days is your corner speed is only as fast as the guy in front of you due to no overtaking on corners rule. There is a huge variation of both driving abilities and cars as well to contend with. I have seen some very poor driving from guys in the latest greatest GT Porsche aka 992RS and also seen some of the best drivers in 981GT4.
The 992GT3 is a faster track car than a 4RS in equally skilled hands. However in the UK at least in my experience the GT4 RS drivers are on the whole better drivers than the 992GT3 ones. The 4RS long term owners seem to be the real track guys for some obvious reasons and the 992GT3 more a mixed bunch imo
The 992GT3 is a faster track car than a 4RS in equally skilled hands. However in the UK at least in my experience the GT4 RS drivers are on the whole better drivers than the 992GT3 ones. The 4RS long term owners seem to be the real track guys for some obvious reasons and the 992GT3 more a mixed bunch imo
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08-02-2024, 08:34 AM
#1915
This thread makes me think a few things:
1. I just want to get a damn MIATA for street driving and keep the RS for track days. I actually don’t find it fun anymore on the main roads as I am too cautious about speed limits and being safe. And if wife calls me on Bluetooth on the highway I can’t hear her that well!
2. I Can’t wait to pick up my car today with the new geo and maybe sneak in a track day tomorrow. We didn’t adjust sway bars but maybe we should before I get it.
3. The Sad reality that at a 2.5 mile track I am probably 7-10 seconds off a pro driver pace. Makes me realize that I need to just stick to the geo/sway bars change and get myself better and not do anything else..or even go for an older car for track days. I just love the PDK…
1. I just want to get a damn MIATA for street driving and keep the RS for track days. I actually don’t find it fun anymore on the main roads as I am too cautious about speed limits and being safe. And if wife calls me on Bluetooth on the highway I can’t hear her that well!
2. I Can’t wait to pick up my car today with the new geo and maybe sneak in a track day tomorrow. We didn’t adjust sway bars but maybe we should before I get it.
3. The Sad reality that at a 2.5 mile track I am probably 7-10 seconds off a pro driver pace. Makes me realize that I need to just stick to the geo/sway bars change and get myself better and not do anything else..or even go for an older car for track days. I just love the PDK…
Last edited by jabwind51; 08-02-2024 at 08:35 AM.
08-02-2024, 09:08 AM
#1916
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The trouble with track days is your corner speed is only as fast as the guy in front of you due to no overtaking on corners rule. There is a huge variation of both driving abilities and cars as well to contend with. I have seen some very poor driving from guys in the latest greatest GT Porsche aka 992RS and also seen some of the best drivers in 981GT4.
The 992GT3 is a faster track car than a 4RS in equally skilled hands. However in the UK at least in my experience the GT4 RS drivers are on the whole better drivers than the 992GT3 ones. The 4RS long term owners seem to be the real track guys for some obvious reasons and the 992GT3 more a mixed bunch imo
The 992GT3 is a faster track car than a 4RS in equally skilled hands. However in the UK at least in my experience the GT4 RS drivers are on the whole better drivers than the 992GT3 ones. The 4RS long term owners seem to be the real track guys for some obvious reasons and the 992GT3 more a mixed bunch imo
GT3 is more of a status car than GT4/RS, so you're likely to see a higher percentage of posers in the GT3.
08-02-2024, 09:13 AM
#1917
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This thread makes me think a few things:
1. I just want to get a damn MIATA for street driving and keep the RS for track days. I actually don’t find it fun anymore on the main roads as I am too cautious about speed limits and being safe. And if wife calls me on Bluetooth on the highway I can’t hear her that well!
2. I Can’t wait to pick up my car today with the new geo and maybe sneak in a track day tomorrow. We didn’t adjust sway bars but maybe we should before I get it.
3. The Sad reality that at a 2.5 mile track I am probably 7-10 seconds off a pro driver pace. Makes me realize that I need to just stick to the geo/sway bars change and get myself better and not do anything else..or even go for an older car for track days. I just love the PDK…
1. I just want to get a damn MIATA for street driving and keep the RS for track days. I actually don’t find it fun anymore on the main roads as I am too cautious about speed limits and being safe. And if wife calls me on Bluetooth on the highway I can’t hear her that well!
2. I Can’t wait to pick up my car today with the new geo and maybe sneak in a track day tomorrow. We didn’t adjust sway bars but maybe we should before I get it.
3. The Sad reality that at a 2.5 mile track I am probably 7-10 seconds off a pro driver pace. Makes me realize that I need to just stick to the geo/sway bars change and get myself better and not do anything else..or even go for an older car for track days. I just love the PDK…
2. Maybe just adjust one thing at a time.
3. At your level, I wouldn't fiddle with the car too much. Have a balanced setup which doesn't chew up the tires too fast, and work on improving your driving. You don't need a slower car to learn to drive on track, but it will take some time to grow into the capabilities of the 4RS. Leave the PSM on, don't try to be a hero.
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08-02-2024, 09:24 AM
#1918
In the US, most track events have the drivers stratified into run groups based on skill level, and we're passing in corners in the upper run groups. We sometimes have pro drivers testing/tuning in the top run groups at some track events.
GT3 is more of a status car than GT4/RS, so you're likely to see a higher percentage of posers in the GT3.
GT3 is more of a status car than GT4/RS, so you're likely to see a higher percentage of posers in the GT3.
08-02-2024, 10:25 AM
#1919
1. Porsche GT cars are happiest when they're driven at track pace, which is hard or unwise to do on most roads. I generally wouldn't buy a Porsche GT car as a road-only car.
2. Maybe just adjust one thing at a time.
3. At your level, I wouldn't fiddle with the car too much. Have a balanced setup which doesn't chew up the tires too fast, and work on improving your driving. You don't need a slower car to learn to drive on track, but it will take some time to grow into the capabilities of the 4RS. Leave the PSM on, don't try to be a hero.
2. Maybe just adjust one thing at a time.
3. At your level, I wouldn't fiddle with the car too much. Have a balanced setup which doesn't chew up the tires too fast, and work on improving your driving. You don't need a slower car to learn to drive on track, but it will take some time to grow into the capabilities of the 4RS. Leave the PSM on, don't try to be a hero.
I foolishly had taken PSM off in previous GT cars when I first learned and did in fact spin a few times but luckily was able to recover safely. I realized what I didn’t know and leave it on always now. I have aimed to drive the GT4RS very smoothly without encountering any PSM dashboard light interruption while driving my best laps. Being able to micro correct all the time at the limit has always been the goal. I am amazed at riding with chief instructors and watching them drive my car like this.
08-02-2024, 01:04 PM
#1920
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Thank you for the advice. I hope to be an instructor one day to help others safely enter the sport.
I foolishly had taken PSM off in previous GT cars when I first learned and did in fact spin a few times but luckily was able to recover safely. I realized what I didn’t know and leave it on always now. I have aimed to drive the GT4RS very smoothly without encountering any PSM dashboard light interruption while driving my best laps. Being able to micro correct all the time at the limit has always been the goal. I am amazed at riding with chief instructors and watching them drive my car like this.
I foolishly had taken PSM off in previous GT cars when I first learned and did in fact spin a few times but luckily was able to recover safely. I realized what I didn’t know and leave it on always now. I have aimed to drive the GT4RS very smoothly without encountering any PSM dashboard light interruption while driving my best laps. Being able to micro correct all the time at the limit has always been the goal. I am amazed at riding with chief instructors and watching them drive my car like this.
In the Porsche GT cars, the PSM won't interfere if you're driving well until you're near the limit. I turned off PSM in the non-GT cars, I leave it on in the GT cars. I don't need to be as fast as possible and prefer to have a safety net. Not interested in crashing a very expensive car at high speed.
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