Aftermarket 944 Control arms. Retail pricing seems a bit off...
#1
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Aftermarket 944 Control arms. Retail pricing seems a bit off...
I'm sorry, but the prices of all the aftermarket control arms seem to be a complete ripoff. R&D my azz. All that is required is measurements and the proper choice of materials. Even the tubular welded versions are priced ridiculously. The cost of the materials, welding time and powder coating, ball joints, etc...$1700? Please. The average upcharge for a fabricated item is 20-30% above the cost....not double or more. These guys are all raping the 944 community. And have been for years.
Hell, maybe I'll fabricate some tubular chromoly arms.
I challenge a shop to produce a set of tubular Chrome Moly control arms for a reasonable price. I guarantee that if you do, you will not be able to keep them on your shelves. The 944 community has been BEGGING for someone to do this.
Details:
Chrome Moly tube: (INCH) TUBE ROUND 4130N 1 X .049 - $.32 per inch (approx 40" each) - $25.60
Jig setup: $100.
Tig welding time: 2-3 hours at $65/per hr - $195
Heim joints/rod ends: approx $41 (x2) - $82
Misc OE hardware (bolts, etc): $50
Estimate of set Total: $638.60 (cost)
Castor blocks (Lindsey Monoball): $295
Total: $747.60
+ 30% = retail price of $971.88
$1500 to 1900+ for just arms. Please. Give me a break. My estimate is based on the fabrication of tubular chromoly arms and buy out of castor blocks. Billet aluminum is $601 (4" 6061-T651 Aluminum Plate). The machine time needed for CNC I would expect to be close to 8 hours or more. My preference is the chromoly. It is stronger than cast aluminum and would be close to being lighter than the machined billet aluminum piece.
I find the prices offered by most of the vendors to be ridiculous. If I can be proven wrong, I welcome it. But please provide a full cost estimate. Not retail.
C.
EDIT- Price adjusted. New part prices found.
Material Info source:
http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/5408/
http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/5320/
Hell, maybe I'll fabricate some tubular chromoly arms.
I challenge a shop to produce a set of tubular Chrome Moly control arms for a reasonable price. I guarantee that if you do, you will not be able to keep them on your shelves. The 944 community has been BEGGING for someone to do this.
Details:
Chrome Moly tube: (INCH) TUBE ROUND 4130N 1 X .049 - $.32 per inch (approx 40" each) - $25.60
Jig setup: $100.
Tig welding time: 2-3 hours at $65/per hr - $195
Heim joints/rod ends: approx $41 (x2) - $82
Misc OE hardware (bolts, etc): $50
Estimate of set Total: $638.60 (cost)
Castor blocks (Lindsey Monoball): $295
Total: $747.60
+ 30% = retail price of $971.88
$1500 to 1900+ for just arms. Please. Give me a break. My estimate is based on the fabrication of tubular chromoly arms and buy out of castor blocks. Billet aluminum is $601 (4" 6061-T651 Aluminum Plate). The machine time needed for CNC I would expect to be close to 8 hours or more. My preference is the chromoly. It is stronger than cast aluminum and would be close to being lighter than the machined billet aluminum piece.
I find the prices offered by most of the vendors to be ridiculous. If I can be proven wrong, I welcome it. But please provide a full cost estimate. Not retail.
C.
EDIT- Price adjusted. New part prices found.
Material Info source:
http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/5408/
http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/5320/
Last edited by Chads996; 11-30-2008 at 01:24 PM.
#4
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
If built properly, there is no reason why a set of tubular control arms could not be used on the street. We simply need to make sure the mounting points accommodate OE rubber or existing aftermarket delrin bushings. And all that means matching the existing measurements on the OE control arms.
C.
C.
#6
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
#7
Originally Posted by SFR Website
SFR Control Arms
We decided to manufacture an inexpensive alternative to the infamous Billet A-arms that have been around for many years.120 wall mild steel tubing or .080 chrome-moly seemed like the right choice.We build these arms in special fixtures that insure a perfect fitment. SFR a-arms are TIG welded and then powder coated to provide a lifetime of corrosion resistance.
The dreaded ball joint failure has been eliminated with the use of a heavy-duty heim joint with misalignment spacers and a CNC'd 316SS spindle pin.These joints are servicable which means you will never have to buy an expensive factory A-arm again.On top of that these units are very strong and can withstand the rigors of a track enviroment.Please specify early or late offset when ordering.
We decided to manufacture an inexpensive alternative to the infamous Billet A-arms that have been around for many years.120 wall mild steel tubing or .080 chrome-moly seemed like the right choice.We build these arms in special fixtures that insure a perfect fitment. SFR a-arms are TIG welded and then powder coated to provide a lifetime of corrosion resistance.
The dreaded ball joint failure has been eliminated with the use of a heavy-duty heim joint with misalignment spacers and a CNC'd 316SS spindle pin.These joints are servicable which means you will never have to buy an expensive factory A-arm again.On top of that these units are very strong and can withstand the rigors of a track enviroment.Please specify early or late offset when ordering.
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#9
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Does this price include the castor monobloc bushing? Also, Chrome Moly is preferred due to its strength characteristics.
SFR reference. Why the bend in the tube? Seems odd.
http://www.speedforceracing.com/prod...suspension.php
C.
SFR reference. Why the bend in the tube? Seems odd.
http://www.speedforceracing.com/prod...suspension.php
C.
#10
$1250 is for the Chrome Moly. You don't know SFRs website?
www.speedforceracing.com
Edit: I cannot speak for Tim on the design of his arms. He will have to answer that. I hope some manufacturers will chime in here. There has been threads on this before and theres more to making control arms than most think.
www.speedforceracing.com
Edit: I cannot speak for Tim on the design of his arms. He will have to answer that. I hope some manufacturers will chime in here. There has been threads on this before and theres more to making control arms than most think.
#11
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
C.
#12
Nordschleife Master
There might be more to designing a control arm..... but a copy is easy.
I think anyone with mild welding/fab skills could make that in their garage. That looks like a good weekend project if someone could either get hold of a spare control arm to copy, or if someone would make plans/blueprints.
I think anyone with mild welding/fab skills could make that in their garage. That looks like a good weekend project if someone could either get hold of a spare control arm to copy, or if someone would make plans/blueprints.
#13
Nordschleife Master
Hell, those Lindsey arms would be much easier to make than the SFR arms.
I have a small fab shop in my garage. I usually just make benches, grills, pipe bumpers...etc. But that Lindsey arm would be cake..... I don't have a need for them, but like Chad said in the 1st post, I really can't believe someone would charge over a grand for something like that. Seems like they're taking advantage of the racing community.
I have a small fab shop in my garage. I usually just make benches, grills, pipe bumpers...etc. But that Lindsey arm would be cake..... I don't have a need for them, but like Chad said in the 1st post, I really can't believe someone would charge over a grand for something like that. Seems like they're taking advantage of the racing community.
#14
Rennlist Member
I believe the weakness in the stock control arms is the ball joint and pin design. Regardless of lowering a car or not this seems to be the weakest link in the arm.
Another solution, assuming you have a good pair of stock arms, is to look at strengthening the ball joint and pin assembly. The pics below are some idea's I have seen over the years.
By rebuilding the stock ball joint and inserting a spherical bearing you eliminate the issue of binding at the ball joint. One could also have new pins machined to allow for a collar and added surface area at both the ball joint and spindle connection which would strengthen the joint and could be made longer to account for some lowering of the car.
Another solution, assuming you have a good pair of stock arms, is to look at strengthening the ball joint and pin assembly. The pics below are some idea's I have seen over the years.
By rebuilding the stock ball joint and inserting a spherical bearing you eliminate the issue of binding at the ball joint. One could also have new pins machined to allow for a collar and added surface area at both the ball joint and spindle connection which would strengthen the joint and could be made longer to account for some lowering of the car.
#15
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I believe the weakness in the stock control arms is the ball joint and pin design. Regardless of lowering a car or not this seems to be the weakest link in the arm.
Another solution, assuming you have a good pair of stock arms, is to look at strengthening the ball joint and pin assembly. The pics below are some idea's I have seen over the years.
By rebuilding the stock ball joint and inserting a spherical bearing you eliminate the issue of binding at the ball joint. One could also have new pins machined to allow for a collar and added surface area at both the ball joint and spindle connection which would strengthen the joint and could be made longer to account for some lowering of the car.
Another solution, assuming you have a good pair of stock arms, is to look at strengthening the ball joint and pin assembly. The pics below are some idea's I have seen over the years.
By rebuilding the stock ball joint and inserting a spherical bearing you eliminate the issue of binding at the ball joint. One could also have new pins machined to allow for a collar and added surface area at both the ball joint and spindle connection which would strengthen the joint and could be made longer to account for some lowering of the car.
Very nice. I'd love to learn the technical details. One question - is the ball joint serviceable?
C.