KaiB

Dave, I know you worked with Chris Cervelli the other day. I wonder if you could address a question I have.

I believe you are a proponent of "softer" springs for most folks at the CR level; Cervelli, on the other hand, would have most on far harder suspensions.

Did ya'll get a chance to discuss this?

Veloce Raptor

Well...as I said, I will identify clients only with their permission. Chris gave his permission. However, I never go into the details of what we work on.

That said, you are really talking philosophically about 2 different things here. Stiffer springs in the abstract, by themselves, or with OEM suspension, can be a real problem, especially with non-remote reservoir dampers.

Stiffer springs, with remote reservoir dampers, can be a real benefit, since they allow the car to remain very flat in the corners, maximizing contact patches, while the dampers allow tuning for extreme suppleness over curbs, rumbles, and track undulations...also maximizing contact patches.

Also, tire selection (and thus, sidewall stiffness), plays a big role here.

I can say that Chris and I are in lockstep in this area, philosophically. In fact, Chris brought another driver with him from Colorado, and his car had extremely stiff springs but DA remote reservior dampers. It worked very, very well, especially over COTA's rumbles, which you have to use more of than at any other track around, IMO.

Sometimes, it makes sense to stiffen the springs on one end of the car only, for example, when using OEM dampers, whereas stiffening them all around, just for the sake of it, can be a disaster.

So...it depends...and Chris and I are in perfect lockstep on this point of view.

Veloce Raptor

A recent experience compels me to add to this thread a topic not heretofore mentioned: the business aspects of coaching. Specifically, the obligations of the coach and the client.

To be succinct, the obligations of the coach are to show up prepared for work at the track on time each day of the engagement, to be prepared and registered for the event (if necessary), to not miss any run sessions or agreed-to track time (unless due to medical or other emergency), and to not attempt to leave early unless the client does.

The obligations of the client are to pay the coach the agreed-to fee if the coach meets his or her obligations, even if (a) the weather is bad, (b) the client's car has the wrong tires, (c) the client chooses not to drive for part or all of a day, (d) the client's car suffers mechanical problems that prevent it from going on track, (e) the client doesn't feel well. Essentially, if the coach is at the track, ready and able to work, the coach gets paid regardless of whether the client chooses to drive or not.

I recently was engaged by a new client from out of town, who was referred to me by a mutual friend. He wanted coaching to learn a new track (to him) in a new car (also to him). He engaged me for 3 days of in-car coaching during a weekend where I already had other clients for the first 2 days (not in the same run group). I disclosed that I had other clients and verified he was in a different run group, and then he agreed to my rate for 3 days.

When we met at the track, on Day 1, weather prevented us from driving for part of the first day, since his car did not have rain tires. At the track, he tried to change our agreement so that we would only work together for the following two days. However, I knew it would dry...and it did...so we ended up on track together late in the day. That was Day 1.

Day 2 began well. We rode together several times. However, a recurring electrical problem with the client's car caused us to miss 2 sessions in the afternoon. Also, after lunch, the client stated thhat he was feeling slightly light-headed. Nonetheless, the client was very visibly happy with our work together, told others the same, and specifically stated he was very much looking forward to working together for a full Day 3.

Day 3: this client was my only client for this day. I specifially came to the track for him that day. When I arrived at the track for work, I received a text from the client stating that he would prefer to have an easier day, and just drive alone, no coaching. I responded that I had arrived, and we should talk face to face. Several hours later, when the client eventually showed up, he indicated that he was still not feeling well, and was probably not going to drive. A bit later, as he prepared to head to the airport to catch an earlier flight, he indicated that he did not have his checkbook on him. if I would email him an invoice, he would mail my check the very next morning. This is not the first time this has happened (client forgetting checkbook), so I was not too alarmed.

That night, as promised, I emailed him a formal invoice. I coach full-time...this is what I do for a living...so I often do present a proper invoice for my services. I invoiced him for the 3 days we agreed to, since I was at the track by 7:15 AM each morning, ready to work, and stayed at the track until it went cold each day.

Fully 5 days later, after not hearing from him or receiving a check, I pinged him by text. He responded by email that he would only be paying me for 1 of the 3 days. He claimed we did not ride together on Day 1. However, we in fact did. He claimed we only got a partial day in car on Day 2, due to his mechanical maladies, which is true. And he claimed that he did not owe me for Day 3 because he texted that he did not want coaching after I had appeared for work that morning.

And he has adamantly refused to change his tune. Another 7 days passed, and he FINALLY sent me one day's fee via PayPal. He claims it is a "settlement"...for what I do not know. My response has been to forward to him our emails where he agrees to my fees and my terms...a per-day fee for 3 consecutive days.

Now, this is a first. I have never had a client stiff me or cheat me. I can't speak for other coaches here. I have had clients get sick, cars break, not want to drive in the rain, etc etc etc but if I was there with them, they paid my fee without question. Now, if I don't show up for work at the track, or miss my flight, etc etc, then of course I don't get paid.

So folks...no coaches want to have a giant legal contract with you. It is a personal relationship that should not require 5 pages of legalese describing when the coach gets paid and when the coach does not. Please be aware of the gentleman's agreement that exists with coaching, and know the obligations of each party.

I will add this at the end, for relevant humor value...

http://m.tickld.com/x/i-wish-i-worke...nhes-hilarious

Ken89911T

Wow. I thought people generally understood the concept of professional coaching. I guess not. Too bad this happened to you. I hope us guys that "forget the checkbook" don't spoil it for everyone else (I can hardly remember what a checkbook looks like, its generally in the possession of my personal assistant).

BTW, loved the link!

Gary R.

Sorry to hear about it Dave, but to be honest I think you should plan on it happening again and have a contract in hand. You are talking, in some cases, a substantial amount of money and implied handshake contracts are a thing of the past.. It's sad, but it's true.

Veloce Raptor

You guys are correct, I guess. Usually, with a new client, I ask for & get a deposit up front (especially if I am buying airline tickets for our engagement). I made the mistake of not doing this in this case because I was already going to be at this particular track with other clients anyway.

TRAKCAR

I don't do much with contracts, lawyers are too expensive.

You cant win 'em all, but you can get even.
Welcome to the entrepreneurials getting screwed after a handshake club.

Veloce Raptor

Yep.

This guy in real life is a pretty big wheeler-dealer. Perhaps he is one of those people who gets off screwing what are consiodered the "little guys" who have no recourse & no formal contract.

That said, I didn't post this to whine. I posted it so everyone is on the same page regarding who does what. This person is fairly new to coaching & to motorsports, and yet was at the track with a small team, whose other drivers brought along another experienced coach, so claiming "ignorance" is not valid.

Mark Dreyer

That sucks. This has happened to me a few times over the years I've been a dentist in spite of having signed financial agreements. It is a continual reminder of why I like dogs better than people.

KaiB

Dang Dave.

Handshake is enough, why get complicated.

This guy is merely a bad person and will either get bit bit Karma someday, or just get his *** kicked.

When we do work together, I'll be sure to bring my checkbook though as I really don't want to wrestle in the mud with you.

TRAKCAR

Karma is a bitch, you don't have to do anything. It all evens out.

RickBetterley

Well that just sucks; shame on him.
I've been a consultant for 38 years and only a couple of times had a payment problem.
One time it was a very wealthy owner of a company who had a reputation for not paying - he did eventually. The other was a big law firm; I had served as an expert witness AND THEY WON the case but took 6 months to pay. After the case was over, I was old news. But I got paid.
I now ALWAYS get a retainer - Dave, you should, too. 50% at least plus the expenses. I'd even suggest all up front (100%).
If you had asked me for a retainer/upfront payment, I would have said 'sure.' PayPal is a wonderful thing.

Veloce Raptor

Understood, thank you...

ProCoach

I've never had such an issue, but it sounds like there were misunderstandings and concerns on both sides, that continued throughout this engagement.

It's all about setting and communicating expectations. Something was broken earlier, it sounds...

Sorry to hear, for all sides...

Veloce Raptor

You may be right, but there were certainly no signs of it. I am pretty well trained in reading body language, etc. Even when we parted and he asked me to send the invoice, he'd send the check the next morning, etc all verbal and non-verbal cues were green... So I was shocked, surprised, stunned 5 days later by his email.