My IMS Solution DIY installation thread...
07-26-2016, 12:45 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
07-26-2016, 12:52 PM
#47
Drifting
Charlie,
Snap ring /Circlip pliers set - suggest you consider Lang. They make them for other brands like Channelock and CMan Pro.
Lang Tools (3495) 12-Piece Fixed Tip Combination Internal/External Snap Ring Pliers Set
If you get them from Amazon you get a good warranty
The forged tips on some other brands are very hard but brittle ! Not good. In theory the replaceable tip pliers are a good idea - until you loose a few tips.
Snap ring /Circlip pliers set - suggest you consider Lang. They make them for other brands like Channelock and CMan Pro.
Lang Tools (3495) 12-Piece Fixed Tip Combination Internal/External Snap Ring Pliers Set
If you get them from Amazon you get a good warranty
The forged tips on some other brands are very hard but brittle ! Not good. In theory the replaceable tip pliers are a good idea - until you loose a few tips.
07-26-2016, 01:05 PM
#48
Former Vendor
I develop things, then hand them off for others to deal with all the hassles associated with them. Looks like today we can't even give something away without people bitching!
07-26-2016, 01:05 PM
#49
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It's a mystery as to what brand of bearing Porsche used. Jake is probably the only one that can answer whether that is original or not. A NSK 6204 DU 17 Deep Groove ball bearing from Amazon is $11.85! Go figure....
You should be able to pry the seal off the bearing with a small screwdriver or a knife. If you do both sides that will let in a lot of light so you can inspect the ***** and races.
You should be able to pry the seal off the bearing with a small screwdriver or a knife. If you do both sides that will let in a lot of light so you can inspect the ***** and races.
07-26-2016, 02:39 PM
#50
The problem with rental of this type of tools is these are precision tools that one thou can make a difference between working and not working.
When people rent something, they tend to be not very careful about it. Ever heard of people asking how to baby a rental car?
So people can unknowingly damage the tools. Also there's normal wear and tear by repeated use as well so it's hard to guarantee the quality of the rental tools. All it takes is one careless handling. Kinda like trying to rent out a snapon digital torque wrench.
IMHO, to avoid frustration and blame despite a noble intention is just to buy the tools and sell it afterwards if you want to recoup the cost.
When people rent something, they tend to be not very careful about it. Ever heard of people asking how to baby a rental car?
So people can unknowingly damage the tools. Also there's normal wear and tear by repeated use as well so it's hard to guarantee the quality of the rental tools. All it takes is one careless handling. Kinda like trying to rent out a snapon digital torque wrench.IMHO, to avoid frustration and blame despite a noble intention is just to buy the tools and sell it afterwards if you want to recoup the cost.
Within 15 minutes of my posting of that offer I had 3 emails from members that were bitching that they had to buy the tools, and how this wasn't "fair" to them. One guy even asked me to credit him the cost of his tools. Hell, I don't even sell the tools and have no way to sell them, hence the reason I was going to GIVE them to the forum.
I develop things, then hand them off for others to deal with all the hassles associated with them. Looks like today we can't even give something away without people bitching!
I develop things, then hand them off for others to deal with all the hassles associated with them. Looks like today we can't even give something away without people bitching!
07-27-2016, 12:44 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Within 15 minutes of my posting of that offer I had 3 emails from members that were bitching that they had to buy the tools, and how this wasn't "fair" to them. One guy even asked me to credit him the cost of his tools. Hell, I don't even sell the tools and have no way to sell them, hence the reason I was going to GIVE them to the forum. I develop things, then hand them off for others to deal with all the hassles associated with them. Looks like today we can't even give something away without people bitching!
Post their names for public flogging! We'll take care of those buggers!
07-27-2016, 01:22 PM
#54
It's a mystery as to what brand of bearing Porsche used. Jake is probably the only one that can answer whether that is original or not. A NSK 6204 DU 17 Deep Groove ball bearing from Amazon is $11.85! Go figure....
You should be able to pry the seal off the bearing with a small screwdriver or a knife. If you do both sides that will let in a lot of light so you can inspect the ***** and races.
You should be able to pry the seal off the bearing with a small screwdriver or a knife. If you do both sides that will let in a lot of light so you can inspect the ***** and races.
I can't imagine it's a standard 6204 bearing is it? That's a run-of-the-mill bearing used in well, everything, especially if they originally used a double-row bearing in there... which is I am going to assume something like (using the same ISO numbering for size) a 3204 or 5204. It is very counter-intuitive going to a single row conrad bearing from one of those.
07-27-2016, 02:13 PM
#57
Drifting
You can find chinese versions for $3 on Ebay if you search by the generic/ISO part number but .........
Rennlist is replete with sad tales of money-saving IMSB tactics. One guy boasted here about using an upgraded version and then sold the car to another Forum member.Kaboom in more ways than one !
Amazing how people think Google makes them a bearing expert. All the research just convinced me to buy a kit from a trustworthy and competent source.YEMV.
for fun and part number Interchange check this out:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6204-2RS-C3-...gAAOSwyQtV3gsr
When you consider the huge amount of fuss/lawsuits/hysteria about the Porsche IMSB fiasco and then you find you can buy them in lots of 10 for $15 on Ebay - you wonder what Porsche Accountants were thinking.
Rennlist is replete with sad tales of money-saving IMSB tactics. One guy boasted here about using an upgraded version and then sold the car to another Forum member.Kaboom in more ways than one !
Amazing how people think Google makes them a bearing expert. All the research just convinced me to buy a kit from a trustworthy and competent source.YEMV.
for fun and part number Interchange check this out:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6204-2RS-C3-...gAAOSwyQtV3gsr
When you consider the huge amount of fuss/lawsuits/hysteria about the Porsche IMSB fiasco and then you find you can buy them in lots of 10 for $15 on Ebay - you wonder what Porsche Accountants were thinking.
07-27-2016, 03:34 PM
#58
That's what really makes me skeptical it's a standard 6204. Are you sure it's not something like a 62204 or W6204? It might have the seals of a 6204 since it's the same ISO ID/OD but it's a different bearing. What's the internal clearance? C3? C4? Standard?
Has anyone done a write up of the OEM bearings? I would love to do a deep-dive read about some background on it so I can form an educated opinion of it and some of the solutions others have come up with.
Has anyone done a write up of the OEM bearings? I would love to do a deep-dive read about some background on it so I can form an educated opinion of it and some of the solutions others have come up with.
07-27-2016, 03:53 PM
#59
Drifting
Just use "Search" here.
The primary causes of failure seem unlikely to be the tolerance/clearance/grade issues of C3/C4/C5 or ABEC equivalents. That would have been an easy fix.You could argue that the tighter clerances of the higher grades are less tolerant of FOM or that ZZ would be better than 2RS,or use 1RS. All that has been beaten to death.
Over years of discussing this we have a long list of suspects that may be cause/consequence or sometimes absent in some cases of failure.
Some are design issues(lubrication vs load). some manufacturing (misalignment). heat degradation of seals, contamination, infrequent oil changes, lack of use.There are thousands of posts on the subject and piles of other comments on the Internet.
Then there is the collateral damage caused during the bearing failure episode.
All that matters to most of us is confidently identifying a long term,economical repair - before the collateral damage occurs. We have that.
So some of us have just moved on to refining the bearing replacement process and proposing PM for the IMSB.
There is a huge opportunity to be our Bearing Hero if you can find a generic source for the 6 speed gearbox pinion shaft bearings. That seems to have defeated everyone - so far.
The primary causes of failure seem unlikely to be the tolerance/clearance/grade issues of C3/C4/C5 or ABEC equivalents. That would have been an easy fix.You could argue that the tighter clerances of the higher grades are less tolerant of FOM or that ZZ would be better than 2RS,or use 1RS. All that has been beaten to death.
Over years of discussing this we have a long list of suspects that may be cause/consequence or sometimes absent in some cases of failure.
Some are design issues(lubrication vs load). some manufacturing (misalignment). heat degradation of seals, contamination, infrequent oil changes, lack of use.There are thousands of posts on the subject and piles of other comments on the Internet.
Then there is the collateral damage caused during the bearing failure episode.
All that matters to most of us is confidently identifying a long term,economical repair - before the collateral damage occurs. We have that.
So some of us have just moved on to refining the bearing replacement process and proposing PM for the IMSB.
There is a huge opportunity to be our Bearing Hero if you can find a generic source for the 6 speed gearbox pinion shaft bearings. That seems to have defeated everyone - so far.
Last edited by Schnell Gelb; 07-27-2016 at 04:33 PM.
07-27-2016, 05:39 PM
#60
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Somewhere in the bowels of Stuttgart, there's prolly a long, detailed document written by Hanz and Franz about the most likely root causes of IMS bearing failure. The most promising theory I've heard has to do with low mileage, or infrequent use cars leading to a failure/breakdown of the oil and products of cumbustion into an acidic or oxidized ionic compound that starts to etch the metal of the races, or *****, or both. However, it's supposed to be a 'sealed' bearing with grease inside, so that would indicate some type of seal failure first, leading to ingress of the lubricating oil.
Frequent use, getting the car up to full op temp, and short oil drain cycles seems to be the best effort to avoid IMS bearing failure. This presumes that the oil will infiltrate the bearing, and that the use cycle will have a beneficial effect of minimizing the products of combustion that precipitate into the crankcase.
I would guess, that document I mentioned was high on the list of discovery items when Porsche was forced into the class action settlement which did almost nothing for the owners, but enriched several lawyers quite handsomely. Maybe some day, far in the future a disgruntled source will pull a Deep Throat and send that doc to Wiki-Leaks, or Jalopnic. Until then, the vendors are offering up various solutions to minimize the failure mode.
That's my opinion, YMMV, don't try this at home, contents have settled, objects in mirror, and may cause **** leakage.
Frequent use, getting the car up to full op temp, and short oil drain cycles seems to be the best effort to avoid IMS bearing failure. This presumes that the oil will infiltrate the bearing, and that the use cycle will have a beneficial effect of minimizing the products of combustion that precipitate into the crankcase.
I would guess, that document I mentioned was high on the list of discovery items when Porsche was forced into the class action settlement which did almost nothing for the owners, but enriched several lawyers quite handsomely. Maybe some day, far in the future a disgruntled source will pull a Deep Throat and send that doc to Wiki-Leaks, or Jalopnic. Until then, the vendors are offering up various solutions to minimize the failure mode.
That's my opinion, YMMV, don't try this at home, contents have settled, objects in mirror, and may cause **** leakage.