kort677

the innodrive system is barely adequate, I only use it when on interstate like roads, the tesla AP is superior. that said the taycan is a offers a far better overall driving experience

jyym

thanks. what about it is worse?

Adk46

Ah, well, first, as a matter of language, it's not literally "apples to oranges". That would require actual fruit. It's a figurative comparison, but yeah, it has become common to use literally to add emphasis. But it makes the grammar police cringe! It's almost like putting a Turbo badge on an electric car.




Sorry.

I believe your "appliance" remark may be driven mostly by the minimalistic styling aesthetic of Tesla. The interiors of most luxury cars — all cars now, really — feature quite a bit of polished metal and other bling. Obviously, the manufacturers think that's what most people want. Or is it what they want us to want? Marketing! OMG, Pagani! Tesla demands that buyers accept minimalism, and their sales growth says a lot of people are buying.

This styling aesthetic difference may be the real battle zone as EV's become more mainstream, though I'd prefer it was debated without vitriol. But it may involve more generally the things that the premium manufacturers have been forced to do to distinguish their cars from others, and justify premium prices. I think they've really become desperate about this as ICE cars have come to look and perform the same. Porsche really does improve the driving experience for those who can make distinctions about such things, but deviated stitching is a "bling" thing, etc. My eye says Porsche has made the Taycan less blingy than their ICE cars, which I like.

daveo4porsche

Innodrive is no compeition for AutoPilot/FSD - Autopilot in the US will often "beat" Innodrive and can successfully keep the car on the road when Innodrive will simply let the car "go" and drive off the road if you do not intervene. Innodrive is more easily confused, gives up more easily on lane keeping, and will not take as tight a corner as Autopilot - it also in my opinion has a fatal flaw in that for lane keeping it will silently "stop working" i.e. it will stop lane keeping with no notice/chime to the driver if it loses lane markings or other cues it is using. While auto-pilot is far far far from flawless and has many many short comings - it's vastly better at it's task than Innodrive which I consider a barely adequate Adaptive Cruise control - I in fact have disabled "innodrive" and only use ACC setting due to Innodrive's other flaw/behavior of aggressive speed limit matching when it detects a speed limit zone change (real or imagined) - Innodrive almost induced multiple rear end collisions (car behind me being surprised at my slowing down) when it would "detect" a speed limit change (again real or imagined) and aggressively slow the vehicle…Innodrive's approach speeds to corners are also un-natural and overly slow in my opinion vs. a human driver and the car's abilities (with out even remotely taxing the vehicle or aggressive driving)

if Tesla's auto-pilot functionality is your benchmark Innodrive will be a disappointment - however ACC and ALK is sufficient for highway usage and stop and go traffic and does an adequate job but is the bare minimum functionality vs. Tesla's auto-pilot…and this is before comparing other Auto-Pilot/FSD features (lane changes with blinker, off ramp exits, auto-lane changes, etc…)

as a straight comparision speed control and lane keeping (nothing fancy) Auto-pilot wins hands down for my local bay-area roads vs. Innodrive which I have had to disable because of the speed limit zone detection behaviors.

YMMV…

gnop1950

Although I checked Innodrive in my button-pushing frenzy before my freeze date I doubt I'll use it much except to experiment. I can't imagine letting my car take corners or an offramp without me guiding it. I use ACC and ALK in my wife's car and that is about as automated as I care to be when it comes to driving. I don't have a Tesla but from reading the forums and articles I doubt I'd have much more faith in autopilot at the moment.

daveo4porsche

it's better than you think, but not as good as the fan boy's want you to believe - forums also tend to focus negative - I'd recommend trying before condemning it -but it _IS_ far from flawless - that being said - a back to back comparision on the same stretch of road can easily demonstrate Tesla's superiority - both systems require monitoring by the driver, but one works most of the time, and the other one fails a lot…off ramps and other things are part of Tesla's FSD software which I do not have/use - it used to be part of "Enhanced Auto-pilot" which is no longer an option for new Tesla's…

over the years I've come to learn where I can and can not trust Tesla's auto-pilot - and I can trust it in more places that Innodrive - but again both systems have deep flaws…the original question that I was answering is:

Tesla wins here - no question, no competiion, just simply a win…if Autopilot is your benchmark Porsche will miss that mark - by a long long long way…same with fast charging and OTA updates - Tesla again just wins in this space, no question, no competition. so......if Autopilot level functionality matters to you - Porsche is not the answer vs. Tesla. Easy - I'm not saying it should/does matter, but one is better than the other, just like Porsche's build quality is better than Tesla's - no question, again clear winner.

Tesla wins in the following areas:

• Autopilot
• OTA updates (as my 2020 Taycan sits at the dealer for multiple days for the 5th software update in less than 24 months)
• Fast Charging network in North America that actually works and is reliable
• Price/Performance (straight line)

if you don't care about the 4 things listed above - great, you do you -and the Taycan is a strong offering

but if the questions is: I love Tesla's autopilot will I be as happy with Innodrfive? - the answer based on my actual ownership and 10's of thounsands of actual miles on both vehicles and driving assistance system is - "no, porsche's system will disappoint you vs. Tesla's".

daveo4porsche

it's like the following question:

Is Electrify America as fast, easy and reliable as Tesla's Supercharger network?

Answer:
OMG ROFL NO! it's not, it's just not. Tesla wins here - move on.

I say this as the EA stations less than 6 months old and less than 5 miles from my home continue to be "offline" for most of their short existence with EA showing no signs of caring or repairing them.

gnop1950

Not as relevant to my case. I'll be doing most of my charging at home since the closest fast chargers of any kind are a pretty good distance from where I live. One reason I opted for the 19.2Kw option and the Porsche Wall Charger connect. I am looking forward to doing some longer trips when my car finally arrives and perhaps that will give me a better feel for the charging network(s).

whiz944

There is a major philosophical difference between Tesla and the legacy manufacturers here. Tesla from the start, has built an extremely software defined platform. Back in the Roadster days, they implemented the remote diagnostic capability so that when they sent their service rangers out to fix a car, they knew in advance what to fix and what parts to bring along. Late in the Roadster program they could do OTA software updates as well, but this capability didn't really get used until the Model S. (A friend/neighbor of mine is a long-time Tesla employee. He did the first Linux port to the original Roadster hardware and also helped implement the OTA stuff. So I've known about this since before the Model S was even released.) Since then, a huge amount of their software has been developed internally so they have total control over their software stack. They do OTA updates maybe once or twice a month - introducing new features, fixing bugs, and sometimes introducing new ones. And remember that nearly the entire multi-million car fleet gets OTA updated. Not just a car here or there that happens to make a visit to a service center. Thus anything you say about the car today, may not be valid in a couple of months.

I actually have the FSD Beta running in my Model 3. (Finally got my "safety score" up from a low of 78 (LOL!), and painfully built it to the high 90s back in December, to qualify for it.) It is an idiot savant. There are things it can do amazingly well. Driving through residential streets, onto the freeway, off the freeway, and to a destination is often not a problem. But then sometimes it will screw up on something seemingly simple, like get into a wrong lane after a left turn, get confused, and require 'intervention'. Two lane into one merges can also be exciting - but usually at low speeds. So again intervention may be required. I am a retired software developer, so I take things like this in stride. However I tend not to use it when my wife is in the car - unless it is pure freeway driving. Nonetheless even in the three months I've had the beta, each OTA update noticeably improves things over the previous version though. Progress is happening fast!

By comparison, the legacy carmakers tend to buy various pieces from third parties (e.g. Mobileye) and then try to do some integration. It is enough of a PITA that once they ship a car with a certain level of software, they try real hard to never update anything. The car is as it is for the rest of its life. I rented a Honda a few weeks ago during a trip. It had an ADAS system that was very much as Dave described a few posts upthread. The adaptive cruise worked ok. But the lane keeping totally sucked and would quietly disengage during all but the most gentle curves. Again it will be that way for the rest of its life. Absolutely no comparison to Tesla.

Dave also mentioned speed limit signs. Tesla does this too, and the speed changes can be annoying. A weirdness I noticed last year when travelling on I-5 north of Shasta was that the truck speed signs were somehow different than all the other truck speed signs in California. So it would wrongly slow down. The last time I drove through there, a few weeks ago, it didn't do this. So one of the OTAs in between fixed the problem.

jyym

have you heard anything about innodrive 2? I have FSD, but not the beta. Maybe I should just get another model S and wait for the next iteration of Porsche’s stuff.

whiz944

Sorry, I don't. Others here are far more qualified to talk about Innodrive and its future than I am.

daveo4porsche

I'd look to Audi/VW offerings and anything they've bought/noted for the future - Porsche's stuff is likely to be identical to any systems offered across the VW line…

Needsdecaf

I'm sorry. A Tesla is not an appliance. If you want an EV that's an appliance...drive a Leaf. A Tesla, in particular the AWD models, actually do have some verve to them. They are, however, highly flawed.

First of all, they are fast. Fast where it counts. I just read Car and Driver's instrumented test on the 992 Turbo S Leightweight. God DAMN that thing is fast. These numbers are BANANAS.

0-60 in 2.1 seconds!
Quarter Mile in 9.9 Seconds at 138 MPH!
0-100 in 5.1 seconds!

Oh but wait. 5-60 on a roll? 0.4 seconds SLOWER than a Model 3 Performance.
30-50 MPH? 1 second SLOWER than a Model 3 Performance
50-70 MPH? 0.7 seconds SLOWER than a Model 3 performance. (stats referenced below).

On boost, my two-generation older 997 Turbo S absolutely destroys my Tesla. But in the real world, trundling along at 30 and you want to make a pass? My $61k, 100 MPGe, POS Build Quality Tesla makes that pass a SECOND FASTER than a car that's two generations newer and by all accounts, is absolutely blindingly fast. Think about that. That, alone, makes the car very rewarding to drive.

Second, the steering is very sharp and precise. The rack is fast. It's accurate. You can place the car extremely well. Flicks of the wrist are all you need for lane changes, and 90 degree turns require barely more than 1/4 of the wheel. Again, this tossable nature gives it a lively and rewarding feel. Actual steering feel? None. Same as any modern Audi, BMW, or Mercedes with EPS.

Third, the heavy regen makes it very easy to control the attitude of the car. No flipping back and forth from gas to brake to make attitude adjustments and weight shifts. A quick lift of your foot brings more weight transfer than simply letting off the gas, meaning it's very easy to adjust the car's behavior. Track mode makes power split adjustable as well as stability control meaning you can really dial the car in.

Fourth, the low COG and balanced mass, combined with a fairly low for a mid-sized EV curb weight of 4,000 lbs (seriously an M340i weighs nearly 3,700) means that the car is easy to adjust, and doesn't surprise.

So no, it's not an appliance. I did say, however, it was flawed. The seats lack lateral support, the suspension rides on the bump stops when loaded and is pogo-y, the materials quality is poor (and sometimes matched with bad build quality as well) and the brakes aren't the best. The Taycan rides better, handles better, gives a much more premium feel, and a better steering feel. It's a much more complete vehicle.

But sorry, the Tesla just isn't an appliance. It may not be your cup of tea, and it's not without it's issues, but it's not an appliance.




C/D TEST RESULTS - 992 Turbo S Lightweight.
60 mph: 2.1 sec
100 mph: 5.1 sec
130 mph: 8.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 9.9 sec @ 138 mph
150 mph: 12.0 sec
170 mph: 16.9 sec
180 mph: 20.8 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.2 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 3.6 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 2.1 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 2.4 sec

C/D TEST RESULTS - 2019 Model 3 Performance.
60 mph: 3.1 sec
100 mph: 8.2 sec
1/4 mile: 11.6 sec @ 115 mph
130 mph: 16.2 sec
150 mph: 27.0 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.3 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 1.7 sec

detansinn

A Tesla is a poorly built and poorly engineered appliance. Yes, I have driven Teslas cars — and lived with them. The ownership cult around the cars is pretty much intolerable.

When I look at a post like the one above, I am speechless. You’re seriously comparing a Tesla Model 3 Performance to a 911 Turbo S?

With a variety of excellent EV alternatives available, there is no reason to put up with mediocrity that Tesla brings to the table. The Taycan showed me that being an EV and a real car aren’t mutually exclusive.

If you love your Tesla, go you, but please don’t proselytize on RennList or at least, have the courtesy to shovel that stuff in the other marques section.

daveo4porsche

the data is factual and repeatable - the Model 3 P _IS_ faster than a 911 Turbo S in those acceleration segments - facts were presented that make it clear the 911 Turbo S _IS_ slower than a $60k Model 3 Performance EV

that's not shoveling crap - that's presenting data that allows people to see beyond their bias.

unless of Course you are disputing the Car & Driver data that was presented.