whiz944

My Model 3 is an early LR RWD - a configuration which is no longer offered. One of the neat things about it is that it has the larger rear motor that is used in the AWD P models. It, especially after the two 5% performance boosts that were provided via OTA, can allegedly do 0->60 in around 5 secs or just a tad under. (I don't have dragy stats to prove it though.) AFAIK, all the "SR" RWD cars have the smaller rear motor that is used in the regular AWD cars ("stealth P3Ds" excluded).

Zcd1

MotorTrend recorded 0-60 mph in 5.0 seconds for the 2019 Model 3 SR+, which aligns nicely with your impressions:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019...ns-review/amp/

wizee

Yup, and I’ve heard Tesla has repeatedly made the cars faster through OTA updates, so the 2019 MotorTrend test may not reflect the acceleration the current firmware is capable of.

The 0-60 numbers don’t quite reflect the sensation of quickness around town either (say flooring it from around 50 km/h or 30 mph). It’s true that the base Model 3 acceleration on the highway is merely normal for a performance sedan, albeit always in the right gear. On the highway, something like a BMW M340i would be a bit quicker than a Model 3 SR+ once in the right gear. However, around town, it’s as quick or quicker than the fastest of sports cars.

For example, the fastest car I’ve owned was a 2017 AMG GT S, a six figure sports car with a 500+ hp V8, dual clutch transmission, and rear biased weight distribution. If I floored the AMG in comfort auto mode after driving gently around 50-60 km/h, it would first take around 1 to 1.5 seconds to get to the right gear after multiple downshifts, another half second or so to reach full turbo boost, then the rear end would break loose and dance around, all while still accelerating more slowly than a base Model 3 (or Taycan) could instantly and effortlessly. When it comes to quick safe passing and merging at street legal speeds, a base model 3 does better than nearly any ICE sports car shifting automatically in normal fuel-economy oriented modes.

AlexCeres

along these lines, it’s been really wild to have to re-adjust perspective in the taycan ts and Tesla plaid. Acceleration is no longer interesting. It’s a given the car will instantly move into whatever spot you want, or cut off anyone, or whatever it is you imagine. Instead, decelerating is what I need to really prioritize. Going from 60->90 instantly and switching lanes into the open spot is great, but going from 90->60 to match speed with the car ahead is a lot more intense. Ice cars give you enough time to adjust snd are a lot harder to overshoot your acceleration target. They’re also a lot lighter and decelerate much faster than they accelerate.

yeah, none of that is true anymore with the top end EV. And it’s weird.

Zcd1

In a similar vein, I find regenerative braking to make driving, even driving very quickly, much easier. Simply easing off of the accelerator provides all the braking force needed for 85% of street driving.

On that point, the "predictive" braking that some manufacturers have seen fit to implement in their EVs seems like a terrible idea. The last thing anyone needs is to be unsure of the way their vehicle will respond to any particular control input. My car's regenerative braking is reduced above 95% SOC and all but non-existent at 100%, and even that is momentarily disorienting.

737gdog

A lot more to a car than numbers. Sound, feel, looks etc.. Guess you are not an auto enthusiast…….

wizee

Nobody here is saying that there aren't reasons someone would get more enjoyment from an ICE car. If anything, what this thread has been saying is that high-power EVs are so fast that any more acceleration becomes boring and pointless.

Dave's point is that the powertrains in 98% of the ICE cars on the road suck compared to fair average EVs. The average ICE car nowadays has some form of turbocharged inline three or four cylinder paired to a torque converter or CVT auto transmission. Such powertrains are not particularly smooth, not particularly responsive, not particularly nice sounding, not particularly fast. Average ICE powertrains just suck compared to an average electric powertrain that gives strong acceleration at street legal speeds, instant response, always in the right gear, near silent operation, and almost no vibration. An economy hatchback like a Chevy Bolt has a powertrain that gives smoother, quieter, and stronger acceleration at street legal speeds than even the best 12-cylinder turbo engines you find in Rolls Royces and Bentleys and Maybachs.

Now, there are ICE powertrains that can be more enjoyable/satisfying than what you'd find in most EVs, even if they perform worse at street legal speeds. Most Porsche sports car powertrains have interesting characteristics that make them fun to use even if they can't objectively compete with the smooth, torquey, instantly responsive, and always in the right gear nature of electric powertrains. Sports car powertrains can make interesting sounds based off your inputs, respond to inputs in interesting manners, fire off crisp instant violent shifts, or provide the satisfaction of rowing through gears - all these things can make driving fun in ways EVs are not. However, 98% ICE cars on the road don't offer that, they're just lame sounding and feeling engines (typically turbo threes or fours) hooked up to CVTs or slushboxes.

737gdog

Enjoy your ev!🤣🤣

ipse dixit

I think you might be one of the few people that actually enjoy regenerative braking when driving.

Most, myself included, find it antithetical to enjoyable performance-oriented driving.

911dude41

You're all over the place and your message is erratic. I see what you're trying to say, but you're having a tough time putting it together and justifying it.

Where to begin? I don't know, maybe those 12 cylinders. Do you know why those RR's, and Maybachs have V12's? Nothing to do with performance.

You're here talking about econoboxes... On Rennlist. Hello?

"Now, there are ICE powertrains that can be more enjoyable/satisfying than what you'd find in most EVs". That's some sheer COPE. A Mazda Miata is more enjoyable and satisfying than ALL EV's, save for *maybe* a Rimac. You're geeking.

"Hey guys let me tell you how much better my smart watch is than my Rolex or other fine timepiece."

It's the same old tiring talking point about EV's. "The torque! The speed!". One trick pony.. Then the post comparing a Tesla to an AMG GT *facepalm*.. How do you even compare the two? Do you know the difference between the two? Do you know what they're designed for or what they offer? How about emotion? Human sensory? Do you like what sex feels like? Touch/ feel, smell, sound...... Taste?

Enjoy your EV's fellas. Clear as day as to who was a poser, but at least you found yourself and no longer need to lie to yourselves by buying expensive gasoline vehicles to fuel your persona.

Adk46

When I get into my ICE cars (e.g., 911 SC), I miss the regenerative braking. It's not unlike downshifting to generate engine braking, like we did in the old days. I'm of the opinion that if someone wants to enjoy the challenge of driving old technology, then they should get an old car.

It's nice that in casual spirited driving, the energy you put into the car coming out of a corner is not entirely wasted when you slow for the next. At $5.00/gallon, I like this a lot — I probably drive with greater spirit on two-lane roads because of this. Lifetime brake life, too (except for the salt problem around here). For Tesla's, there's a clear separation between regenerative and friction braking — right and left pedals. The regen is adjustable if it's too strong (and it is for me in the snow).

In emergencies, it's good that you get braking between the time you lift and when you foot reaches the brake pedal. Looking at you, all you deer out there.

One of the "few" who like regenerative braking is Randy Pobst, by the way, including on the track. Let's do a poll, but only of those who have experience.

detansinn

I am fine with the light regeneration that you get in the Taycan Sport Plus mode, because it is effectively emulating engine braking.
For efficient driving, I prefer Porsche's coasting implementation with regeneration on braking versus so-called "one pedal" driving.

Having driven a number of different EVs, Porsche's brake blending that leverages regeneration and disc brakes, when necessary, feels like the superior solution.

wizee

Rolls Royces and Maybachs have V12s for a combination of smoothness, silence, torque, and bragging rights. Econobox EV powertrains can outdo such luxury ICE powertrains for smoothness and silence, and at low speeds even torque, while also being more responsive. They don’t give any bragging rights the way a V12 does, and I must admit it’s kinda fun to experience the turbine like nature of turbo V12s, but overall they’re not very exciting because their main design goals of silence, smoothness, and effortless acceleration on the street are easily outdone by EVs. For a long time I’ve been thinking of getting a C215 or C216 Mercedes-Benz CL600 with the M275 turbo V12 (they’re cool cars and fairly inexpensive to purchase), though after having driven a Taycan that throughly outdoes them in their goal of smooth silent torque, those cars feel obsolete.

I’m not sure what COPE means. The ND2 Miata powertrain isn’t particularly special; it doesn’t sound particularly nice, isn’t particularly smooth, isn’t powerful. It is more fun than the average ICE powertrain due to being paired to a sweet manual transmission, and being a responsive and high-ish revving naturally aspirated engine. What makes the Miata special isn’t its powertrain, but the overall package of being a tiny tossable light nimble car that you can fully make use of without having to go at super illegal speeds.

As for the AMG GT, as I said, I owned one, and it was a load of fun. It had bizarre proportions, razor sharp handling, striking looks, made funny noises, shifted with violence in race mode, and it was a hoot on back roads at speeds where traction was less of an issue and I could keep it in the right gear. My point was that in normal driving with automatic shifting around town, its usable acceleration fell flat on its face compared to even an econobox EV, despite being a semi-exotic sports car designed for speed and power.

whiz944

Quite a few do the "blended brake pedal" thing - including all of GMs EVs and PHEVs (e.g., Volt, Bolt, ELR, Spark EV, CT6 PHEV, etc) of the past dozen years. Both Tesla and GM use the Bosch i-booster system, as do a number of German automakers. Both have a maximum regen of about -60 to -70 kW - Volt on front wheels, Tesla on rear wheels. Comparing driving my wifes 2016 Volt to my Model 3, I like having the distinct separation.

One of the annoyances of the Volts blended system (and others like it, including for many years the Prius) is that sometimes you'll have your foot on the brake pedal, hit some imperfection in the road, and regen will suddenly get disabled due to traction control waking up. You then have to quickly press the brake pedal harder to get the friction brakes into the game. I've never had this happen in the Tesla.

With the Taycan able to do over 200 kW of regen, it is understandable that Porsche moved some of it to the brake pedal though. If it were all available on the Go pedal, it could be quite jarring to passengers - unless one drove with an extremely smooth touch on the pedal.

ipse dixit

I suppose one-pedal driving is just the (unintended?) evolution of driving vis-a-vis drivetrains?

MT --> Auto --> PDK/DCT --> One-pedal regen