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A lot of the public L2 charging stations that one sees are only 30 amps (and 208V). A significant exception has been the Tesla "Destination" charging stations - which have often offered higher power for road trippers. Tesla used to offer 72- and 80 amp on-board charging options in the early Model S and X. These days there are enough DC fast charging sites that higher speed L2 really isn't needed so much. I guess the "take rate" was low enough that it hasn't been worth the extra production steps to continue offering the option.
So it seems that the EV market is converging on 48 amp on-board chargers. This covers the common cases of 24, 32, and 40 amp charging - plus a little extra for those so inclined to go for a 48 amp setup. It also works out well in the internal design of the on-board chargers - where the manufacturers can divide the power electronics into three 16 amp sections - then wire them appropriately for single- or three-phase geographies. Lower cost EVs usually have a 32 amp on-board charger (e.g., two 16 amp boards instead of three.)
Perhaps when trucks, with relatively low efficiency compared to a car, start coming with battery packs significantly larger than 100 kWh, this will change.
Yeah, no kidding. Look at the charge times for the Lightning at 32A !!
On this front, looks like the pack size for the Extended Range Lightning must be around 160 kW. YIKES!
Made this quick chart based on Ford's chart above. Given the fact that it's marketing fluff, these numbers are rough. Took a stab at the rough efficiencies / heat loss during charging. For sure you'll get more loss at 80A vs. 32.
On this front, looks like the pack size for the Extended Range Lightning must be around 160 kW. YIKES!
Made this quick chart based on Ford's chart above. Given the fact that it's marketing fluff, these numbers are rough. Took a stab at the rough efficiencies / heat loss during charging. For sure you'll get more loss at 80A vs. 32.
Getting a bit off topic, but I wonder where the Lightning and R1T will wind up in real world consumption. They definitely need these big packs.
I see the R1T has a EPA rating of 70 MPGe which is the same as my Taycan 4S (meanwhile my real world consumption is 113 MPGe).
Afraid to visit Rivian forums to find out as I hear the cult is worse than Tesla.
Getting a bit off topic, but I wonder where the Lightning and R1T will wind up in real world consumption. They definitely need these big packs.
I see the R1T has a EPA rating of 70 MPGe which is the same as my Taycan 4S (meanwhile my real world consumption is 113 MPGe).
Afraid to visit Rivian forums to find out as I hear the cult is worse than Tesla.
iirc the R1T and hence the R1S? have an EPA rating of 316 miles. Hope that holds true, or as is the case for the Taycan, perhaps slightly more in the ‘real World’.
19.2 kw _IS_ a thing - but I think only for home charging - the world of public 19.2 kW chargers in North America is _NOT_ growing - growth is occurring in the FastDC space where this 19.2 kW has no role to play - I’m all for the 19.2 kW option _IF_ you know for a fact you’ll have access to a 19.2 kW charger (home, work, travels) - but most residential homes CAN NOT have a 100 amp dedicated EV circuit, and it’s not like you can throw a rock and hit a 19.2 kW in the wild…they are in fact very very rare and mostly Tesla Destination chargers…
I’m not opposed to the option - I just want people to make a highly informed decision - it’s not a general improvment to the car - it’s a specific improvement that requires particular circumstances to be beneficial - and mostlly those particular circumstances are related to one’s personal charging setup and will rarely be found when away from home…
at the moment Tesla no longer offers any >48 amp L2 chargers on any of their vehicles
GM hummers will have a 19.2 kW option
I’m guessing the Ford products will
Taycan has it
Audi does not offer it
VW does not offer it
Rivian offers it
LucidAir offers it
but they are all options, the standard is 32/40/48 amp L2 chargers on the vehicles - and the public charging infrastructure is by and large 208V/30 amp units - and some high amp “destination” chargers (typically Tesla) but fractionally those chargers are rarely 19.2 kW…
it’s a great feature - but narrow use case without much support “in the wild” and unlikely to get better over time - since the growth over time will be via FastDC chargers which is a far far better/faster thing…
great feature - exceptionally narrow benefit profile - but great if you “fit” the profile. Kinda expensive to get “just in case”.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 11-18-2021 at 12:06 PM.
Getting a bit off topic, but I wonder where the Lightning and R1T will wind up in real world consumption. They definitely need these big packs.
I see the R1T has a EPA rating of 70 MPGe which is the same as my Taycan 4S (meanwhile my real world consumption is 113 MPGe).
Afraid to visit Rivian forums to find out as I hear the cult is worse than Tesla.
LOL! RIVN has got to be the most overhyped IPO in recent memory. A lot of FOMO of the "next TSLA". But Scarange is no Elon Musk. Nowhere near the technical depth. They have a production rate of about two vehicles a day. And Papa Bezos wants his delivery vans - not R1[TS].
R1T is weighing in at upwards of 7100 lbs. The Hummer EV is supposed to be even worse. As impressive as their performance may be, they definitely are going against the "tread lightly" mindset.
I'm actually more intrigued with the move of some others towards lighter weight and more aerodynamic vehicles. (Actually this is how Ferry Porsche started back in the 1940s/50s...) Lucid seems to be getting some great reviews. I've seen a prototype in person. Wasn't particularly impressed with some of the interior - but then again, it was a prototype. They claim to want to compete against the S-Class - but the EQS looks like it will have some decent specs as well. (But after watching Lenos review of the EQS, I'm not that interested in its level of "over the topness". And I doubt my wife will ever let me buy another MB...) Then there is weird stuff like Aptera here in the U.S., and Lightyear in Europe. The combination of very high efficiency, relatively large battery pack, and a lot of solar cells means that for a lot of use cases, and I fall squarely into one, you may only need to charge it from the wall a few times a year.
today was an example of a Trivial 50 amp install - my son graduated College and is starting his new job Aug 22 - he got an apartment in the city near work - and his land lord approved me adding a 50 amp circuit NEMA 6-50 plug to his apartment
it took two hours of labor (could've done it in an hour but I was training my son to do the work)
total parts cost = $215.53 - more than 85% of cost is 3 of the 6 items - high-quality outlet, breaker, wire ($189.24 87%)
the install was Trivial because the main 200 amp panel was on the opposite side of the wall from from the Garage - here are the pics…new parts are circled in RED
if you have room in your main panel for a new breaker - and the main panel is located close to your garage - this does not have to be a big deal - however it can be way way way more expensive IF your panel is full and not well located vs. your garage.
so $250 in parts and two hours of labor (could've been an hour) - and boom we have a 50 amp EV charging circuit - I had 15 ft of left over wire which I'm going to make into an NEMA 6-50 extension cord.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-13-2022 at 12:26 PM.
this question comes up a lot - and below we have a table that breaks down the most common "sizes" of charging infrastructure - both home and commerical - I hope the column names are self explanatory - if not I'll be happy to answer questions.
the last two column cover in duration an expected charging session for two cases:
1. full charge - 5% to 100% - this is uncommon but possible - I modeled 80 kWh of capacity
2. daily charge - 45% to 85% - this is common for a large daily usage - I modeled 35 kWh of capacity
NOTE: for the charge rates 100 kW or above - the table below models the "linear" charge rate (constant) for time estimates - we all know there is taper - once you're above 70-80% SOC on the Taycan - so it will take a bit longer than the table estimates - my apologies - I didn't feel like modeling the exact charging curve because it's controlled by in vehicle software - if I feel like it I might whip up something custom - but for now - just know for charge rates 100 kW+ the estimate is best case _IF_ the charge rate were linear - actual charge rates to 100% SOC might be longer … but the estimate to 85% SOC is going to be closer to real life…as with most things YMMV - but this table is still useful to show the range of possible outcomes given different charging rates.
Previous home owner had a Tesla Model S I think. Looking in garage already plug wired into the wall and to the box like this one but no writing on it. Circuit board has 50 amp breaker in it named Tesla. Which one would I need for myself if ordering a new Taycan 4 CT and wife's BMW X4 hybrid (to be purchased soon?). LMK. Thanks
with the recent service update regarding the PMCC/PMC+ (Porsche admits they kinda suck) they also now recommend Hubble outlets by name as an approved NEMA plug for an EVSE installation - wonder if Porsche North America has been cribbing from my notes on this forum more than likely they are simply following Tesla's lead in this space.
it's worth noting that Porsche has "nerfed" the PMCC and would love to nerf the PMC+ to only support 20 amps by default - the reasons for this are complex but reasonable speculation is that they failed EE design 101 for North American wire gauge vs. 9.6 kW charging loads…
at this time I personally can not longer recommend the VW/Audi/Porsche EVSE's - good news however is these things are vehicle agnostic by design, you don't need to use the Porsche EVSE - it can be safely ignored - and there are numerous high quality high confidence alternatives for your EVSE needs - some solutions are as little as $200 - but as always you can spend more
sufficie to say I really really do not recommend spending $1120 on the optional PMCC - $1120 will go a long ways towards an alternative EVSE and you get to keep the included PMC+ and use it for away from home duty.
excruciating/thorough/gory details can be found in these thread
Sandy Munro just did a youtube video on issues with home charging installations. Worth watching - and far better than certain other youtubers who pay little attention to safety.
For those who are plugging into 14-50 receptacles and running a full 40 amps through it, they definitely recommend the heavy duty Hubbell receptacles. Bryant too - which are also made by Hubbell. (For the record, mine is a Pass & Seymour and has been working for years without problem. But I am probably going to upgrade to a hard-wired wall unit soon.)
But I am probably going to upgrade to a hard-wired wall unit soon.)
of many excellent EVSE alternatives to the woefully bad and ridiculously expensive PMC+/PMCC EVSE/hot-plate/home-heater options/and-now-nerfed-to-20-amps from Porsche - I've been "living" with the new J-1772 Tesla Wall Chargers ($550) w/Optional glass-colored face plates for your color matching garage decorating needs - they are a solid offering/alternative - you can read my "review" progress in the following thread…
Dec. 2022 Update - given numerous documented problems with the Porsche PMC+/PMCC/PWCC I can no longer recommend Porsche as your EVSE vendor for North America - please consider excellent high quality alternatives that are: more affordable, more reliable, more robust and more compatible than the Porsche provided EVSE's have proven to be…this is unfortunate but as of writing this, factually, Porsche provides the worse North American EVSE's being sold today and there are numerous better alternatives for your Level2 AC charging needs.
the PMC+/PMCC/PWCC are referenced through this entire thread - and it's too complex and evolved to clean up all the references - please NOTE anywhere teh PMC+/PMCC/PWCC is mentioned it is no LONG a recommended product for North American L2 charging needs - best to find one of many excellent alternatives.
what caused this post - well we now have confirmation that the Porsche Wall Charger Connect suffers from the same compatibility problems as the PMC+/PMCC in that it can refuse to charge non-Porsche EV's - which honestly is not how these things are supposed to work. Expensive, flaky, faulty, and incompatible is the only valid characterization of Porsche's North American EVSE offerings - many many high quality alternatives exist and will serve you well for your L2 EV charging needs - so buy the cars because they are great, but get your EVSE from someone else - simple as that.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 12-01-2022 at 10:55 PM.
@daveo4porsche I’m late to the thank-you party, but like others reading this thread, thanks for all the hugely helpful technical information on chargers/charging. Same comment for your input on other threads. This is the pinnacle of what these forums can provide to owner enthusiasts. Thank you!
11-18-2021, 09:43 AM
more than likely they are simply following Tesla's lead in this space.
