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@daveo4porsche I’m late to the thank-you party, but like others reading this thread, thanks for all the hugely helpful technical information on chargers/charging. Same comment for your input on other threads. This is the pinnacle of what these forums can provide to owner enthusiasts. Thank you!
Dec. 2022 Update - given numerous documented problems with the Porsche PMC+/PMCC/PWCC I can no longer recommend Porsche as your EVSE vendor for North America - please consider excellent high quality alternatives that are: more affordable, more reliable, more robust and more compatible than the Porsche provided EVSE's have proven to be…this is unfortunate but as of writing this, factually, Porsche provides the worse North American EVSE's being sold today and there are numerous better alternatives for your Level2 AC charging needs.
the PMC+/PMCC/PWCC are referenced through this entire thread - and it's too complex and evolved to clean up all the references - please NOTE anywhere teh PMC+/PMCC/PWCC is mentioned it is no LONG a recommended product for North American L2 charging needs - best to find one of many excellent alternatives.
what caused this post - well we now have confirmation that the Porsche Wall Charger Connect suffers from the same compatibility problems as the PMC+/PMCC in that it can refuse to charge non-Porsche EV's - which honestly is not how these things are supposed to work. Expensive, flaky, faulty, and incompatible is the only valid characterization of Porsche's North American EVSE offerings - many many high quality alternatives exist and will serve you well for your L2 EV charging needs - so buy the cars because they are great, but get your EVSE from someone else - simple as that.
Official response from Porsche NA when a customer (not me) asked about the Wall charger supporting other EV's - they are punting on compatibilitiy - avoid Porsche for your North American EVSE L2 charging needs - get something else.
Well I heard back from Porsche NA. "We're not allowed to advise using the Porsche Charger on any other vehicle". Kind of a non-response. Wouldn't say anything else.
So BUYER BEWARE. If you want this thing to work on any other electrical vehicle.... it should be thought of as proprietary. Not sure why it works in other areas; frustrating. Probably something specific they are doing in the communication that won't allow connection to other cars.
I thought Tesla was proprietary....but I can charge the Porsche with a Tesla charger.....
specify the high quality Hubble NEMA 14-50 plug type - it's heavy duty and will handle years of plugging and unplugging your EVSE - it's like $90 but it will outlast the crap $12 Leviton 14-50 plug most electricians will install - if you hold both in your hands you will feel the difference in quality (weight)
240 volts @ 50 amps is a LOT of power - this is not the place to shave costs…this plug will transmit power for HOURS continuously every night while you sleep - every night - you really really don't want sone cheap plug that may melt in your garage below your bedroom shorting out a 3 am while it charges your EV - this is not the place to shave costs…
EVSE's are unique in the 240V appliance realm - few if any 240V appliances run at steady state maximum power for hours on end with NO break - if you bring your Taycan home at 5% battery and plug in - you will pull 9.6 kW (240 volts at 40 amps) for close to 10 solid hours with _NO_ break or dip in current demand - virtually no other 240 volt appliance will run at full capacity - most will cycle on/off/on/off/on/off - your oven may pull 9.6 kW but it will only do it for like 20 min - and when it reaches temp it will stop pulling power, then pull again for 2 min to maintain temp - but it will cycle on/off/on/off/on/off - EVSE's run flat line at full power until the battery reaches it's target capacity - that could take 10 hours of continuous use to fill a Taycan battery - again the is NOT the place to cheap out on wire gauge, wire quality (copper vs. aluminum other other alloy) or quality of the components - specify and demand the best…cheaping out in this area could lead to shorts and fires and melting.
you really really don't want this thing shorting or melting - the higher quality plug will be better over time - and will need to last for years…
Fast Forward from when this post was done - and now this is _OFFICIAL_ Porsche recommendation for North America - complete with a Hubble NEMA 14-50 part number - I can not recommend anyone consider using any of the Porsche EVSE's (PMC+/PMCC/Wall) but they are correct - get the Hubble 14-50/6-50 commercial/industrial grade plug - but consider alternative EVSE's from non-Porsche vendors for your L2 EV charging needs.
pony up for the $100 NEMA high quality plug!
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 12-02-2022 at 06:35 PM.
Fast Forward from when this post was done - and now this is _OFFICIAL_ Porsche recommendation for North America - complete with a Hubble NEMA 14-50 part number - I can not recommend anyone consider using any of the Porsche EVSE's (PMC+/PMCC/Wall) but they are correct - get the Hubble 14-50/6-50 commercial/industrial grade plug - but consider alternative EVSE's from non-Porsche vendors for your L2 EV charging needs.
pony up for the $100 NEMA high quality plug!
Whoever wrote the above certainly didn't get it reviewed for technical accuracy...
Whoever wrote the above certainly didn't get it reviewed for technical accuracy...
yes I agree - I've provided feedback/corrections to my Service Manager and Dealer GM - for as much good as it will do
Porsche's whole persona int his space lacks confidence that they take this seriously - I really really don't like their approach - it's almost like they'd rather sell ICE vehicle's - they are not "all in" on this whole EV thing.
yes I agree - I've provided feedback/corrections to my Service Manager and Dealer GM - for as much good as it will do
Porsche's whole persona int his space lacks confidence that they take this seriously - I really really don't like their approach - it's almost like they'd rather sell ICE vehicle's - they are not "all in" on this whole EV thing.
To their credit, at least they got the "onboard charger" vs "cord" terminology right.
Sandy Munro just did a youtube video on issues with home charging installations. Worth watching - and far better than certain other youtubers who pay little attention to safety...
Youtuber Tom Moloughney just did a really excellent follow-on to the Sandy Munro video. Interestingly, the melted 14-50 he has on his table is a Leviton. About the only thing I'd add to Tom's list towards the end is that even at 120V, folks should be using commercial grade receptacles. His list only suggested commercial grade for 240V receptacles. I also agree with him that now that the latest NEC requires GFCI breakers ($$$) for receptacles used for charging, it tips the balance further towards doing hard wired installs of wall charging stations - rather than plug-ins.
Looks like they also “nerfed” the Porsche charger that came with my ‘22 Taycan for Level 1 charging as part of the latest software update. Was that supposed to happen? I used it for occasional charging on 110 when out-of-town and, while slow, it did at least provide charging in this lifetime (once I figured out how to switch it to 100%). Now, post-software update, the charging rate on 110 at 100% makes glacial seem fast.
Porsche's recommendation to the entire North American dealer network published in an NTSB article - good advice across the board…
Porsche seems to be wising up - this is mostly good information and I agree with 99% of it - very interesting that Porsche is now recommending AGAINST using L1 charging with their charger for daily use or for more than 12 hours
this is a huge step forward in educating dealers and customers - and the recommendations are solid, conservative and good advice for _ANY_ EVSE install for any EV you are considering purchasing.
Article Analysis and interesting bits in my opinion:
Page 1
covers _ALL_ porsche EV's and Hybrids
covers all NEMA based Porsche EVSE's (PMC, PMC+, PMCC)
Page 2
documents use of Hubble 14-50 & 6-50 (3 wire) plug recommendation with part numbers - this is EXCELLENT advice and should be followed 100%
use 6 gauge wire for 50 amp circuit - this is excellent advice and exceeds US building code (8 gauge) minimum requirements (this is interesting as well in the context of their 10 gauge wire powersupply cable)
the "caution" on Page 2 is interesting in an attempt to shift blame to low quality NEMA plugs - they are not wrong, but perhaps if their power supply cable could/would NOT achieve operating temperatures +90F to ambient condtions the cheaper/lesser quality NEMA plugs wouldn't be melting
also interesting on Page 2 is Porsches recommendation of not using L1/120V charging for "daily" use or more than 12 hours - I do not think this is a problem w/Porsche EVSE's per-say - but rather most North American 120V/15 amp electrical circuits are not designed to run at "max" power for 72 hours straight (the time it would take to charge a Taycan from empty at 1.44 kW) - so I think their EVSE is fine and has no issues - but I would agree it's probalby not a good idea to pull "MAX" power for more than 12 hours on 99% of pre-existing 120V/15 amp/NEMA 5-15 power sockets
I think this advice can be ignored if you've installed a dedicated NEMA 5-15 plug for EV charging with wire that is "over-spec"
I agree with this advice 100% for most pre-existing NEMA 5-15 plug sockets
I'm wondering also if there are issues here with Taycan's battery/on-board charging hardware running for so long at low kW's
not sure how porsche feels about a NEMA 5-20 circuit - 5-20 circuits will tend to have higher quality installed
I thiink Porsche's advice here is really really spot on - most $3 residentical grade NEMA 5-15 sockets really really are not design for constant power draw at near max power for 12-70+ hours with no reduction in power draw for that entire period
I think Porsche is spot on here and I think we should all consider "backing" them here on this recommendation and repositioning of L1 charging as "emergency" use only - not a vehicle charging plan.
warnings that really really "hot" is NOT a defect - again they are not wrong, but other 9.6 kW EVSE's do not run as hot as Porsche's EVSE so theirs while safe could easily be designed to not achieve the temps it achieves - no other mobile EVSE I've encountered runs "hot" like the Porsche one does.
Porsche is doubling down on their assertion that their +90F-+110F expected temperature rise on their supply cable (as documented in public/engineering standards tables for 10 gauge wire with 40 amp usage) is not their problem that it will cause low quality NEMA plugs to melt (cheap plastics melt at 150F or greater operating temperature). Other EVSE's using higher quality NEMA power supply cables (8 & 6 gauge) only have a +20/+40F temp rise+ambient - thereby stressing the NEMA socket less…perhaps avoiding this awkward interaction with low quality NEMA plugs
Pages 3-11
Detailed "campaign" instructions as to where to place the warning sticker on the different PMCx units
inventory of the "campaign" steps/items to do for each customer.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 12-10-2022 at 07:28 AM.
It's interesting to note - Porsche's Sept. 2022 NTSB article no longer recommends using 120V charging - only for "emergency" use and for no more than 12 hours.
I believe this to be good advice, and I think it has more to do with the average quality of pre-existing 120V circuits in 99.9% of north american homes - and I can agree with it - most/all 120V/15 amp circuits really are not designed or provisioned to run at near max (80%) capacity for hours on end (it can take 14-16 hours to charge a Cayenne and over 72 hours to Charge a Taycan (or more than 100 hours to charge the upcoming Macan EV) - 99.9% of residential 120V circuits are just not rated for that duration of continuous load - and if you're doing this several times a week the accumulated thermal stress over months and years could be significant, and eventually cause some wire insulation to fail…wire heats up during charging (expands) - charging stops wire cools down (contracts) - so you have this thermal-breathing happening (wire getting bigger and then smaller) this expansion/contraction stress the plastic thermal insulation which is also expanding/contracting and from the heat is warm & mushy - doing htis over years and it will eventually crack and potentiallly fail allowing a short circuit…the way to avoid this is to lower the thermal load, and the way to lower the thermal load is thicker wire (14 gauge instead of 16 gauge or 12 gauge instead of 14 gauge) - you can pass "code" for a 120V/15 amp circuit with 20/18 gauge wire - that wire is going to get really really hot pulling 1.44 kW for 12 hours while charging your Cayenne…
I'm going to adopt porsche's advice here and no longer recommend anyone really honestly consider using a 120V/15 amp circuit for daily charging duty for their Hybrid or EV
I would "allow" it if you install a dedicated 120V circuit on upgraded wire (14/12/10 gauge) - no shared plugs - but by the time you're doing this just install a 240V circuit and that matches Porsche's recommendation from this NTSB article as well and is good/solid advice. 240V charging will both charge your EV/Hybrid faster and place less accumulated thermal load on the wire when it takes only 2 hours to charge your Cayenne instead of 14 hours…over weeks/months/years the accumulated thermal-hours of load will be significantly less for 240V vs. 120V.
One thing the electrician said when my landlady was upgrading her house and adding more circuits, was the cheapness of the original house builders. They did everything they could to save money while still being legal. So sockets, switches all had to be replaced, about 50% of the wiring in the basement apartment I live in was also replaced.
Also, my friend had bought a townhouse and start doing renovations on it, tearing down the walls and ceilings to put in new/extra sockets and pot lights, she found the previous owners had done an installed job that would not even pass an inspection. IE. hidden junction boxes, wire segments tried together instead of a single run from the main box. So even if you have something that look great on the outside, there is no telling what is underneath.
Last edited by earl pottinger; 12-11-2022 at 04:26 AM.
Porsche's recommendation to the entire North American dealer network published in an NTSB article - good advice across the board…
Porsche seems to be wising up - this is mostly good information and I agree with 99% of it - very interesting that Porsche is now recommending AGAINST using L1 charging with their charger for daily use or for more than 12 hours
this is a huge step forward in educating dealers and customers - and the recommendations are solid, conservative and good advice for _ANY_ EVSE install for any EV you are considering purchasing.
Article Analysis and interesting bits in my opinion:
Page 1
covers _ALL_ porsche EV's and Hybrids
covers all NEMA based Porsche EVSE's (PMC, PMC+, PMCC)
Page 2
documents use of Hubble 14-50 & 6-50 (3 wire) plug recommendation with part numbers - this is EXCELLENT advice and should be followed 100%
use 6 gauge wire for 50 amp circuit - this is excellent advice and exceeds US building code (8 gauge) minimum requirements (this is interesting as well in the context of their 10 gauge wire powersupply cable)
Note they say "A 50-amp branch circuit should use minimum 6 AWG, 90°C-rated copper wire for conductors"...
They should be distinguishing between THHN in conduit vs Romex, and also by length of the run. Even though #6 Romex might be ok in practice for short runs, it may not otherwise meet code.
the "caution" on Page 2 is interesting in an attempt to shift blame to low quality NEMA plugs - they are not wrong, but perhaps if their power supply cable could/would NOT achieve operating temperatures +90F to ambient condtions the cheaper/lesser quality NEMA plugs wouldn't be melting
also interesting on Page 2 is Porsches recommendation of not using L1/120V charging for "daily" use or more than 12 hours - I do not think this is a problem w/Porsche EVSE's per-say - but rather most North American 120V/15 amp electrical circuits are not designed to run at "max" power for 72 hours straight (the time it would take to charge a Taycan from empty at 1.44 kW) - so I think their EVSE is fine and has no issues - but I would agree it's probalby not a good idea to pull "MAX" power for more than 12 hours on 99% of pre-existing 120V/15 amp/NEMA 5-15 power sockets
I think this advice can be ignored if you've installed a dedicated NEMA 5-15 plug for EV charging with wire that is "over-spec"
I agree with this advice 100% for most pre-existing NEMA 5-15 plug sockets
I'm wondering also if there are issues here with Taycan's battery/on-board charging hardware running for so long at low kW's
not sure how porsche feels about a NEMA 5-20 circuit - 5-20 circuits will tend to have higher quality installed
I thiink Porsche's advice here is really really spot on - most $3 residentical grade NEMA 5-15 sockets really really are not design for constant power draw at near max power for 12-70+ hours with no reduction in power draw for that entire period
You are being generous at $3. Home depot sells "residential quality" 10-packs for like $5 (last time I looked). Then the electricians will save 30 seconds of install time by sticking the conductors into the 'back stabs' (little knife cutting into the conductor) instead of using the (properly tightened) screw terminals.
A decent commercial quality 5-15 or 5-20 receptacle isn't that expensive though. They should be in the $5-10 range. Obviously a GFCI version in a garage would cost more.
I think Porsche is spot on here and I think we should all consider "backing" them here on this recommendation and repositioning of L1 charging as "emergency" use only - not a vehicle charging plan.
warnings that really really "hot" is NOT a defect - again they are not wrong, but other 9.6 kW EVSE's do not run as hot as Porsche's EVSE so theirs while safe could easily be designed to not achieve the temps it achieves - no other mobile EVSE I've encountered runs "hot" like the Porsche one does.
Porsche is doubling down on their assertion that their +90F-+110F expected temperature rise on their supply cable (as documented in public/engineering standards tables for 10 gauge wire with 40 amp usage) is not their problem that it will cause low quality NEMA plugs to melt (cheap plastics melt at 150F or greater operating temperature). Other EVSE's using higher quality NEMA power supply cables (8 & 6 gauge) only have a +20/+40F temp rise+ambient - thereby stressing the NEMA socket less…perhaps avoiding this awkward interaction with low quality NEMA plugs
Pages 3-11
Detailed "campaign" instructions as to where to place the warning sticker on the different PMCx units
inventory of the "campaign" steps/items to do for each customer.
12-02-2022, 06:09 PM
