acoste

Wrong. Tesla didn't even have battery research team before 2017.

acoste

And what does that mean? Either they were not done with the product programming and testing at the time of your purchase or they held this back on purpose to give you candies later. Which one sounds better?

I bet you the very first Taycan will be a finalized, complete, fully tested product.

Lorenfb

He's a factory production guy, "engineer", and not an electronics/mechanical systems designer. And for him to attempt to evaluate Tesla's systems designs is beyond his backgrounds/capabilities.

westwest888

Do you honestly believe that the first Taycan off the line will be higher initial quality than the 3rd production year of Model 3? VW Group is up to $40 billion in diesel fines. It’s possible that they rushed these things...

We all know complicated cars have complicated problems. We tolerate it or we’d all be driving Carmys. In my experience, Tesla is better at fixing the problems without a dealer service visit. We all know that fixing the programming on something like Porsche Active Safe takes 3 service visits and eventually they just replace the whole $4000 unit. There has to be a better way...

RonF

Definitely wrong. Tesla signed up with Jeff Dahn in 2015. It probably already has in house cell research at that time already.

https://fortune.com/2015/06/17/meet-...ery-scientist/

Yeah continue your strawman argument. He's the foremost consultant and tear down expert in the industry. His connection had always been with the traditional auto industry and in no way a Tesla shill as you accused him of.

Yeah. Even for Toyota it still has problems whenever a new design (e.g. Prius) came out. Part of the reason it got the reputation is its philosophy is to take the least risk and to change as little as possible.

I don't understand why people want to compare a "perfect" Taycan you won't be able to buy for another to the Tesla. Tesla had been making electric cars for a decade now. This is the first one Porsche has ever made. Porsche never had a good track record for even a brand new ICE design. The Audi E-Tron got a battery related recall after only a few thousand units were produced. Let's wait until at least a few thousands Taycan are delivered before we make the judgement.

acoste

2017 is when Tesla got some real stuff from Jeff Dahn. And that was NMC. Remember Tesla uses NCA and Jeff is expert in NMC. 2170 was designed by Panasonic (and it's just a slight tweak compared to 1860).

RonF

But you said Tesla did not have battery research before 2017. Now you're talking about results from the research? You forgot there is the internet everyone could search for facts?

acoste

Research that was done independently from Tesla at the university and did not start in 2015, but earlier by Jeff. To say in different words: Jeff gave to Tesla what they had in 2017.
So now Tesla has car batteries from Pana and storage batteries from Jeff.

RonF

I don't know why we are even debating this. Tesla can get 375 miles range from the 100 kWh battery pack. No one else gets even close. Audi E-Tron could only get 204 miles EPA range from a 95 kWh pack. If Panasonic owns the formulation there is nothing to prevent anyone to buy cells from them to achieve similar results. Not necessarily the same result because there are other factors but at least not so far apart.

westwest888

I think you’re just proving the point that Germany’s century of manufacturing experience is only good for adding complexity to inefficient car designs. Now they went from inefficient ICE cars to inefficient EV systems. And now you can get an EV with a transmission, dynamic swaybars, rear wheel steering, etc. You don’t need any of this crap on something with the mass in the center floor! EVs don’t sway. EVs don’t have a rear mass that needs dynamic toe-in. EVs don’t need a freakin’ transmission, as they’re plenty efficient at 10,000 RPM. And cars with regenerative braking don’t need 20” ceramic discs for $20,000.

acoste

What prevents others to use Panasonic's NCA is that while NCA has the highest energy density and is the cheapest material, it's the most dangerous at the same time. There is a reason why only Teslas go up in flames.

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190901_04585874

acoste

You don't know much about the Germans. They have the best consumption to horsepower ratio cars. Also just look at the list of cars with lowest air drag coeffffff :https://www.motoringresearch.com/car...new-cars-2018/

westwest888

If you put your hand on the hood and there is heat an hour after the car is OFF, it’s probably not efficient. If you use liquid fuel and do on board combustion, you’ve already lost. 95% of the energy escapes. A new GT3 RS still only gets 12 MPG. You really need to get 120 MPG to be a player in this game.

Lorenfb

With regard to range, you ignore the other key factors affecting range besides the battery. You need to remember the other key factors, the vehicle's weight and drag. Let's not oversimplify as usual!

Lorenfb

Your source for this? No need for posting hyperbolic statements in this thread.