Shannonville
08-23-2004, 10:30 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
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Great weekend at Shannonville. Courtney at Fiorano did a great job setting up the car. With the Pilot Cups, the grip was incredible. Still learning the car and how to "steer the car with your right foot", but did have a lot of fun. 1 honorary black flag too. Could've been worse. I could have been in that CRX that's still there and on the way to the wreckers! Dexter next this Friday....anyone else going?
08-23-2004, 10:55 AM
#32
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I shake my head in disbelief when I read about the ABS issue. If you don't understand why driving a car with ABS off is a safety issue, then you shouldn't be driving on a track. Smarten up. Also, you WILL be faster on dry pavement with ABS off, no argument, it's been proven many times.
I also couldn't believe the rules for those Endless battle guys. You couldn't pay me to get on a track like Shannonville with inexperienced people who drive without helmets. How can I tell they are inexperienced? The gallery on thier website says it all. I also found it funny that they suggest the slower cars get "off the racing line" to let a faster car pass. Sorry, but that is the way cars run into each other. The faster guy should find a way around the slower, or the slower guy just breaths a bit on the straights and lets the faster car by.
I don't mind that you are making fun of the PCA guys, a lot of them are a bunch of stiffs. But they have a LOT of rules that make sense when you are trying to get everybody and thier cars home in one piece. Also, you will never learn how to drive fast without a GOOD Instructor in your car.
YMMV,
Patrick
I also couldn't believe the rules for those Endless battle guys. You couldn't pay me to get on a track like Shannonville with inexperienced people who drive without helmets. How can I tell they are inexperienced? The gallery on thier website says it all. I also found it funny that they suggest the slower cars get "off the racing line" to let a faster car pass. Sorry, but that is the way cars run into each other. The faster guy should find a way around the slower, or the slower guy just breaths a bit on the straights and lets the faster car by.
I don't mind that you are making fun of the PCA guys, a lot of them are a bunch of stiffs. But they have a LOT of rules that make sense when you are trying to get everybody and thier cars home in one piece. Also, you will never learn how to drive fast without a GOOD Instructor in your car.
YMMV,
Patrick
08-23-2004, 11:00 AM
#33
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[QUOTE=P.Po]I shake my head in disbelief when I read about the ABS issue. If you don't understand why driving a car with ABS off is a safety issue, then you shouldn't be driving on a track. Smarten up. Also, you WILL be faster on dry pavement with ABS off, no argument, it's been proven many times.
I guess you should call up all the race car drivers / owners who use abs on their race cars and tell them they don't know how to drive either. When and where has it been proven? Sorry you are wrong..here is a quote from the specs of a GT3 cup race car:
power disc brakes
internally vented, cross-drilled brake discs (330 mm front, 330 mm rear)
ABS, adjusted to race conditions
... notice the car has ABS!!
http://www.persson.st/nick/models/cu...t3cup2000.html
and formula 1 cars had ABS but it was banned..otherwise they would use it too..where do you get your silly ideas from??
quote "F1 cars did have ABS in the 90's but it was made illegal once again because the cars were too fast and easy to drive with "
p.po..you shouldnt tell anyone to smarten up until you do
as far as the guys from battleendless..they were silly for not weraing helmets but the quality of some of their driving blows away many other track day people i have seen. good for them for running track days and they can only get better with our help
I guess you should call up all the race car drivers / owners who use abs on their race cars and tell them they don't know how to drive either. When and where has it been proven? Sorry you are wrong..here is a quote from the specs of a GT3 cup race car:
power disc brakes
internally vented, cross-drilled brake discs (330 mm front, 330 mm rear)
ABS, adjusted to race conditions
... notice the car has ABS!!
http://www.persson.st/nick/models/cu...t3cup2000.html
and formula 1 cars had ABS but it was banned..otherwise they would use it too..where do you get your silly ideas from??
quote "F1 cars did have ABS in the 90's but it was made illegal once again because the cars were too fast and easy to drive with "
p.po..you shouldnt tell anyone to smarten up until you do
as far as the guys from battleendless..they were silly for not weraing helmets but the quality of some of their driving blows away many other track day people i have seen. good for them for running track days and they can only get better with our help
Last edited by JLJ; 08-23-2004 at 11:22 AM.
08-23-2004, 11:29 AM
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hey p.po...
ABS
"All modern road cars have ABS these days. They are also used widely on the track. At Ric Wood's they use an AUTO DIAGNOS ABS system"
and p.po...
http://www.rtrmotorsportz.com/team_cars.asp
For safety equipment the car has a BMW PTG Motorsports built 8-point roll cage. The racer has FIA certified Sparco carbon kevlar racing seat with flat plate bracing, SFI certified 6 point racing harness, onboard SPA fire extinguisher and 100 liter ATL/PTG racing fuel cell with a drybrake fueling system. To stop all this action the car has a PTG Motorsports Racing Group N ABS BRAKE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM with AP 6 piston calipers and 14" high performance racing rotors up front and AP 4 piston rear calipers with 12.45" high performance racing rotors in the rear, stainless steel brake lines, carbon fiber brake duct cooling system
----------------------------------
WANT TO APOLOGISE FOR SAYING " SMARTEN UP" YET?
ABS
"All modern road cars have ABS these days. They are also used widely on the track. At Ric Wood's they use an AUTO DIAGNOS ABS system"
and p.po...
http://www.rtrmotorsportz.com/team_cars.asp
For safety equipment the car has a BMW PTG Motorsports built 8-point roll cage. The racer has FIA certified Sparco carbon kevlar racing seat with flat plate bracing, SFI certified 6 point racing harness, onboard SPA fire extinguisher and 100 liter ATL/PTG racing fuel cell with a drybrake fueling system. To stop all this action the car has a PTG Motorsports Racing Group N ABS BRAKE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM with AP 6 piston calipers and 14" high performance racing rotors up front and AP 4 piston rear calipers with 12.45" high performance racing rotors in the rear, stainless steel brake lines, carbon fiber brake duct cooling system
----------------------------------
WANT TO APOLOGISE FOR SAYING " SMARTEN UP" YET?
08-23-2004, 12:10 PM
#37
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Wow... it is getting rough in here. A lot of "racing ABS systems" have the ability to lock up the wheels. As I understand it if the brake pressure goes above a certain point the ABS is disconnected... I.E. if the pedal is slammed on rather then squeezed on.
As for Dexter day this Friday... of course I will be there (good chance of being kicked out of the family if I am not)... It looks like a smaller turn out then the other days this year, so be ready for lots of laps!
Marc
As for Dexter day this Friday... of course I will be there (good chance of being kicked out of the family if I am not)... It looks like a smaller turn out then the other days this year, so be ready for lots of laps!
Marc
08-23-2004, 12:22 PM
#38
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I want/need lots of laps. Got Pierre Savoy for the day to teach me a few tricks so should be good. Have done Mosport 7 times previously in M3 and C4S, but this will be my first time out in the GT3. I just need to put out of my head how fast those P1 cars were going through 2 at the ALMS race!
08-23-2004, 01:47 PM
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I don't want to get in a pissing match, but seriously, they is a large difference between Racing ABS and a street cars ABS.
Just because a race car uses ABS doesn't mean it's faster or better. You can have the argument that ABS is faster, I don't care about that. Just realize that the PCA wants you to turn off ABS for a number of reasons, the most important being safety. Try to lock your tires and spin the car safely at high speed wth ABS on..... then try it with ABS off. Then tell me what you think. If you honestly say that you can control your car better with ABS on, then that's fine... it doesn't bother me. If many people with many years of car racing experince say driving with ABS on is not very safe, I would listen to them.
>I guess you should call up all the race car drivers / owners who use abs on their race cars and tell them they don't know how to drive either
Sure.... a lot of race car drivers don't know how to drive. Has nothing to do with ABS. But I will tell them that..... I see bad drivers in all sorts of racing... Do you have thier phone numbers so I can call them?
>p.po..you shouldnt tell anyone to smarten up until you do
I agree.
>they were silly for not weraing helmets but the quality of some of their driving blows away many other track day people i have seen. good for them for running track days and they can only get better with our help
You are right. I applaud the fact that they are out at the track and organize lapping events. Good for them! I don't doubt that they have some good drivers... however, the vast majority of pictures I saw where cars all bent out of shape trying to "drift" or completly offline. That's fine, go ahead have fun... but I am just saying that I would never go out on a track with guys F***n around like that AND are not wearing helmets.... but if you think that's a good environment for driving on the track, go ahead, I don't mind.
>yes..and im trying to spend it " smartening up" as you can see
Great... you can start by reading a few books by Carrol Smith. "Drive to Win" I think would be a good start.
-Patrick
Just because a race car uses ABS doesn't mean it's faster or better. You can have the argument that ABS is faster, I don't care about that. Just realize that the PCA wants you to turn off ABS for a number of reasons, the most important being safety. Try to lock your tires and spin the car safely at high speed wth ABS on..... then try it with ABS off. Then tell me what you think. If you honestly say that you can control your car better with ABS on, then that's fine... it doesn't bother me. If many people with many years of car racing experince say driving with ABS on is not very safe, I would listen to them.
>I guess you should call up all the race car drivers / owners who use abs on their race cars and tell them they don't know how to drive either
Sure.... a lot of race car drivers don't know how to drive. Has nothing to do with ABS. But I will tell them that..... I see bad drivers in all sorts of racing... Do you have thier phone numbers so I can call them?
>p.po..you shouldnt tell anyone to smarten up until you do
I agree.
>they were silly for not weraing helmets but the quality of some of their driving blows away many other track day people i have seen. good for them for running track days and they can only get better with our help
You are right. I applaud the fact that they are out at the track and organize lapping events. Good for them! I don't doubt that they have some good drivers... however, the vast majority of pictures I saw where cars all bent out of shape trying to "drift" or completly offline. That's fine, go ahead have fun... but I am just saying that I would never go out on a track with guys F***n around like that AND are not wearing helmets.... but if you think that's a good environment for driving on the track, go ahead, I don't mind.
>yes..and im trying to spend it " smartening up" as you can see
Great... you can start by reading a few books by Carrol Smith. "Drive to Win" I think would be a good start.
-Patrick
08-23-2004, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by P.Po
I don't want to get in a pissing match, but seriously, they is a large difference between Racing ABS and a street cars ABS.
Just because a race car uses ABS doesn't mean it's faster or better. You can have the argument that ABS is faster, I don't care about that. Just realize that the PCA wants you to turn off ABS for a number of reasons, the most important being safety. Try to lock your tires and spin the car safely at high speed wth ABS on..... then try it with ABS off. Then tell me what you think. If you honestly say that you can control your car better with ABS on, then that's fine... it doesn't bother me. If many people with many years of car racing experince say driving with ABS on is not very safe, I would listen to them.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
>I guess you should call up all the race car drivers / owners who use abs on their race cars and tell them they don't know how to drive either
Sure.... a lot of race car drivers don't know how to drive. Has nothing to do with ABS. But I will tell them that..... I see bad drivers in all sorts of racing... Do you have thier phone numbers so I can call them?
SILLY RESPONSE
>p.po..you shouldnt tell anyone to smarten up until you do
I agree.
>they were silly for not weraing helmets but the quality of some of their driving blows away many other track day people i have seen. good for them for running track days and they can only get better with our help
You are right. I applaud the fact that they are out at the track and organize lapping events. Good for them! I don't doubt that they have some good drivers... however, the vast majority of pictures I saw where cars all bent out of shape trying to "drift" or completly offline. That's fine, go ahead have fun... but I am just saying that I would never go out on a track with guys F***n around like that AND are not wearing helmets.... but if you think that's a good environment for driving on the track, go ahead, I don't mind.
IT REALLY WASNT THAT BAD AND FRYD WAS THERE SO HE CAN TESTIFY TOO. TRY IT THEN COMMENT. LOOKING AT A WEBSITE DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING. THESE GUYS WERE WACKY BUT NOT TOO BAD FROM A SAFETY OR SKILL STANDPOINT. I WONT ATTEND ANY PCA EVENTS AS THEY ARE DANGEROUS DUE TO ARROGANCE FROM ORGANIZERS AND SOME STAFF. FOR EXAMPLE, BOTHO VON BOSE STANDING IN FRONT OF SPEEDING CARS ON WET TEFLON TAUNTING THEM ( ME ) SAYING " COME AND KILL ME" THEN HE GETS RUN OVER BY A BOXSTER..OH YEAH, PCA RUNS REAL SAFE EVENTS.I WAS THERE FOR THAT SAFETY DEMONSTRATION
>yes..and im trying to spend it " smartening up" as you can see
Great... you can start by reading a few books by Carrol Smith. "Drive to Win" I think would be a good start.
I WILL CHECK IT OUT
-Patrick
Just because a race car uses ABS doesn't mean it's faster or better. You can have the argument that ABS is faster, I don't care about that. Just realize that the PCA wants you to turn off ABS for a number of reasons, the most important being safety. Try to lock your tires and spin the car safely at high speed wth ABS on..... then try it with ABS off. Then tell me what you think. If you honestly say that you can control your car better with ABS on, then that's fine... it doesn't bother me. If many people with many years of car racing experince say driving with ABS on is not very safe, I would listen to them.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
>I guess you should call up all the race car drivers / owners who use abs on their race cars and tell them they don't know how to drive either
Sure.... a lot of race car drivers don't know how to drive. Has nothing to do with ABS. But I will tell them that..... I see bad drivers in all sorts of racing... Do you have thier phone numbers so I can call them?
SILLY RESPONSE
>p.po..you shouldnt tell anyone to smarten up until you do
I agree.
>they were silly for not weraing helmets but the quality of some of their driving blows away many other track day people i have seen. good for them for running track days and they can only get better with our help
You are right. I applaud the fact that they are out at the track and organize lapping events. Good for them! I don't doubt that they have some good drivers... however, the vast majority of pictures I saw where cars all bent out of shape trying to "drift" or completly offline. That's fine, go ahead have fun... but I am just saying that I would never go out on a track with guys F***n around like that AND are not wearing helmets.... but if you think that's a good environment for driving on the track, go ahead, I don't mind.
IT REALLY WASNT THAT BAD AND FRYD WAS THERE SO HE CAN TESTIFY TOO. TRY IT THEN COMMENT. LOOKING AT A WEBSITE DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING. THESE GUYS WERE WACKY BUT NOT TOO BAD FROM A SAFETY OR SKILL STANDPOINT. I WONT ATTEND ANY PCA EVENTS AS THEY ARE DANGEROUS DUE TO ARROGANCE FROM ORGANIZERS AND SOME STAFF. FOR EXAMPLE, BOTHO VON BOSE STANDING IN FRONT OF SPEEDING CARS ON WET TEFLON TAUNTING THEM ( ME ) SAYING " COME AND KILL ME" THEN HE GETS RUN OVER BY A BOXSTER..OH YEAH, PCA RUNS REAL SAFE EVENTS.I WAS THERE FOR THAT SAFETY DEMONSTRATION
>yes..and im trying to spend it " smartening up" as you can see
Great... you can start by reading a few books by Carrol Smith. "Drive to Win" I think would be a good start.
I WILL CHECK IT OUT
-Patrick
08-23-2004, 02:11 PM
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I can also find articles on the web!!
http://www.racingschools.com/tips/abs.shtml
Wooooo!!! Doesn't mean i am right!
-Patrick
http://www.racingschools.com/tips/abs.shtml
Wooooo!!! Doesn't mean i am right!
-Patrick
08-23-2004, 02:12 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by P.Po
I can also find articles on the web!!
http://www.racingschools.com/tips/abs.shtml
Wooooo!!! Doesn't mean i am right!
-Patrick
http://www.racingschools.com/tips/abs.shtml
Wooooo!!! Doesn't mean i am right!
-Patrick
08-23-2004, 02:22 PM
#44
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>> If many people with many years of car racing experince say driving with ABS on is not very safe, I would listen to them.
>ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
Yes...I would listen to them! I will suggest you turn off your ABS, if you don't want too.... that's fine.
>IT REALLY WASNT THAT BAD AND FRYD WAS THERE SO HE CAN TESTIFY TOO. TRY IT THEN COMMENT. LOOKING AT A WEBSITE DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.
You have a really good point. I should not have judged them just by the pictures... I apologize. You are right about that.
>I WONT ATTEND ANY PCA EVENTS AS THEY ARE DANGEROUS DUE TO ARROGANCE FROM ORGANIZERS AND SOME STAFF.
That's fine. That leaves more room for me to learn how to drive better.... there are some REALLY good people and excellent drivers in the PCA program. Noticed that I said SOME, because I do agree with you partly. But the DEs are VERY safe events. If you attend the Dexter days and don't attend the PCA because you think they are unsafe you have a very different way of seeing the world then I do. Perhaps in that world, ABS is faster and safer... and just because you race a car you know how to drive fast. I dunno.....
-Patrick
>ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
Yes...I would listen to them! I will suggest you turn off your ABS, if you don't want too.... that's fine.
>IT REALLY WASNT THAT BAD AND FRYD WAS THERE SO HE CAN TESTIFY TOO. TRY IT THEN COMMENT. LOOKING AT A WEBSITE DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.
You have a really good point. I should not have judged them just by the pictures... I apologize. You are right about that.
>I WONT ATTEND ANY PCA EVENTS AS THEY ARE DANGEROUS DUE TO ARROGANCE FROM ORGANIZERS AND SOME STAFF.
That's fine. That leaves more room for me to learn how to drive better.... there are some REALLY good people and excellent drivers in the PCA program. Noticed that I said SOME, because I do agree with you partly. But the DEs are VERY safe events. If you attend the Dexter days and don't attend the PCA because you think they are unsafe you have a very different way of seeing the world then I do. Perhaps in that world, ABS is faster and safer... and just because you race a car you know how to drive fast. I dunno.....
-Patrick