Shannonville
08-23-2004, 02:27 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by P.Po
>> If many people with many years of car racing experince say driving with ABS on is not very safe, I would listen to them.
>ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
Yes...I would listen to them! I will suggest you turn off your ABS, if you don't want too.... that's fine.
>IT REALLY WASNT THAT BAD AND FRYD WAS THERE SO HE CAN TESTIFY TOO. TRY IT THEN COMMENT. LOOKING AT A WEBSITE DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.
You have a really good point. I should not have judged them just by the pictures... I apologize. You are right about that.
>I WONT ATTEND ANY PCA EVENTS AS THEY ARE DANGEROUS DUE TO ARROGANCE FROM ORGANIZERS AND SOME STAFF.
That's fine. That leaves more room for me to learn how to drive better.... there are some REALLY good people and excellent drivers in the PCA program. Noticed that I said SOME, because I do agree with you partly. But the DEs are VERY safe events. If you attend the Dexter days and don't attend the PCA because you think they are unsafe you have a very different way of seeing the world then I do. Perhaps in that world, ABS is faster and safer... and just because you race a car you know how to drive fast. I dunno.....
-Patrick
>ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
Yes...I would listen to them! I will suggest you turn off your ABS, if you don't want too.... that's fine.
>IT REALLY WASNT THAT BAD AND FRYD WAS THERE SO HE CAN TESTIFY TOO. TRY IT THEN COMMENT. LOOKING AT A WEBSITE DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING.
You have a really good point. I should not have judged them just by the pictures... I apologize. You are right about that.
>I WONT ATTEND ANY PCA EVENTS AS THEY ARE DANGEROUS DUE TO ARROGANCE FROM ORGANIZERS AND SOME STAFF.
That's fine. That leaves more room for me to learn how to drive better.... there are some REALLY good people and excellent drivers in the PCA program. Noticed that I said SOME, because I do agree with you partly. But the DEs are VERY safe events. If you attend the Dexter days and don't attend the PCA because you think they are unsafe you have a very different way of seeing the world then I do. Perhaps in that world, ABS is faster and safer... and just because you race a car you know how to drive fast. I dunno.....
-Patrick
08-23-2004, 02:42 PM
#48
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>WANT TO APOLOGISE FOR SAYING " SMARTEN UP" YET?
Naaaaaa......... I still mean it but thanks for asking. =)
>SO IM NOT SPEAKING OUT MY BUTT ALL THE TIME.
That means that you speak out of your but sometimes? That is interesting.... how do you do that? Vocal chords in your colon? hee hee....
>DEXTER IS THE BEST BAR NONE
I am glad you have found a lapping event that fulfills your needs.
>SERIOUSLY..CALM DOWN YOU ARE VERY UPSET
>BUT DONT GET SO EXCITED, REMAIN CALM
I really don't know what you are trying to do here.... but I am super calm. Serenity now..... hummmmmmm.....
-Patrick
Naaaaaa......... I still mean it but thanks for asking. =)
>SO IM NOT SPEAKING OUT MY BUTT ALL THE TIME.
That means that you speak out of your but sometimes? That is interesting.... how do you do that? Vocal chords in your colon? hee hee....
>DEXTER IS THE BEST BAR NONE
I am glad you have found a lapping event that fulfills your needs.
>SERIOUSLY..CALM DOWN YOU ARE VERY UPSET
>BUT DONT GET SO EXCITED, REMAIN CALM
I really don't know what you are trying to do here.... but I am super calm. Serenity now..... hummmmmmm.....
-Patrick
08-23-2004, 05:27 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
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I don't want to wade too far into this mire, but I attended both events on the weekend and I'll say that they both have their places and their people that they appeal to. One is highly structured, very safety oriented, with less in-car time, but good quality instruction available along the way. The other is less structured, cheaper, no instruction, less safe (IMO), but with a lot more lap time available. Depends on what you want. For me, seat time and learning are the most important thing atm. I like the instruction I get at the UCR events and generally feel safe out there, but actual track time is a lot less than I would like and there's a lot of down time. It also takes the whole w/e, which is somewhat difficult for someone with a young family (me) who doesn't want to have to invest in a good divorce lawyer! I don't mind doing either of these though if that's all there is. . What I would prefer is a smaller run group, with good instructors who are safety conscious, on a good track, with lots of seat time. See my post on Mosport track day on the 30th and you'll see what I mean. You pay more, but you get more. More track time, less cars, better (ie. professional) instruction, and with an organizer that is safety conscious.
08-23-2004, 05:41 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by fryd
I don't want to wade too far into this mire, but I attended both events on the weekend and I'll say that they both have their places and their people that they appeal to. One is highly structured, very safety oriented, with less in-car time, but good quality instruction available along the way. The other is less structured, cheaper, no instruction, less safe (IMO), but with a lot more lap time available. Depends on what you want. For me, seat time and learning are the most important thing atm. I like the instruction I get at the UCR events and generally feel safe out there, but actual track time is a lot less than I would like and there's a lot of down time. It also takes the whole w/e, which is somewhat difficult for someone with a young family (me) who doesn't want to have to invest in a good divorce lawyer! I don't mind doing either of these though if that's all there is. . What I would prefer is a smaller run group, with good instructors who are safety conscious, on a good track, with lots of seat time. See my post on Mosport track day on the 30th and you'll see what I mean. You pay more, but you get more. More track time, less cars, better (ie. professional) instruction, and with an organizer that is safety conscious.
08-23-2004, 05:59 PM
#54
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Fryd,
I would agree with everything your mentioned. Well said.
For the record I think Dexter days are great for track time, but they are a lot more dangerous then the PCA DE events. I believe that the large variety of cars and large variety in driver skill increase the chances of car to car contact. I will always recomend Dexter days.....
-Patrick
I would agree with everything your mentioned. Well said.
For the record I think Dexter days are great for track time, but they are a lot more dangerous then the PCA DE events. I believe that the large variety of cars and large variety in driver skill increase the chances of car to car contact. I will always recomend Dexter days.....
-Patrick
08-23-2004, 06:08 PM
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Seriously though p.po...this thread has been fun but how can you say a PCAUCR event is safe at all when one of the directors ( botho von bose) stands at the end of a wet teflon pad, with beginner track people speeding down on him , with ABS disconnected and taunts them to kill him. This was an annual event until HE GOT RUN OVER! If this isn't the most dangerous track event ever then I must be crazy. This silliness would never happen at dexter. No way can they be considered safe after that
08-23-2004, 06:24 PM
#56
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I wasn't' going to be dragged back in but.....
The question I have is what defines a "safer" event? IMHO you have to look at the number of incidents per track day at Mosport. More importantly you should look and see if any of them occurred with a student who was receiving instruction.
The question I have is what defines a "safer" event? IMHO you have to look at the number of incidents per track day at Mosport. More importantly you should look and see if any of them occurred with a student who was receiving instruction.
08-23-2004, 11:02 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by mdex
I wasn't' going to be dragged back in but.....
The question I have is what defines a "safer" event? IMHO you have to look at the number of incidents per track day at Mosport. More importantly you should look and see if any of them occurred with a student who was receiving instruction.
The question I have is what defines a "safer" event? IMHO you have to look at the number of incidents per track day at Mosport. More importantly you should look and see if any of them occurred with a student who was receiving instruction.
08-24-2004, 06:07 AM
#58
Three Wheelin'
They did something like that a few years back at the Solo 1 school......i thought it was crazy for some guy to be standing out there waving a flag at some newby with no ABS.........Mosport is dangerous because of it's speeds....not very forgiving like the other small tracks......they still toss cars at Shannoville..last event rolled a BMW...probably 5 to 6 cars have rolled there......I still like my chance at SMP.....My good friend who bought my Z06 rocket will be at the next Dexter day....try keeping up to that car....Nothing like a big stroke torque monster.
08-24-2004, 10:58 AM
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>Seriously though p.po...this thread has been fun
Agreed.
>how can you say a PCAUCR event is safe at all when one of the directors ( botho von bose) stands at the end of a wet teflon pad, with beginner track people speeding down on him , with ABS disconnected and taunts them to kill him.
We are talking about two different things here. You are talking about one element of the skid pad day. I am talking about the PCA UCR DE days at Mosport or Shannonville. I would agree with you about the skid pad day, it does seem stupid to me as well to stand in front of the cars like that. Don't missunderstand me, I am not a UCR only type guy. I don't agree with everything they preach, but I do believe that you CAN recieve excellent instruction and also have very little chance of any incident when attending a PCA DE event.
Dexter is a different type of day all together. I believe the instructors are excellent, but when I was attending they had a really mixed bag of people on the track. Should an experienced driver in a race prepped Corvette be onthetrack at the same time with an inexperienced driver in a stock Civic or Golf with street tires? It's this mix that I believe has a larger potential for incident.
Dexter is fine, those Endless battle guys are probably fine, but I strongly believe that if you are on a race track, pushing ANY car to the limit you should have at very least a helmet on!!! Personally, as I got faster I didn't feel safe without a five point harness, race seat, and at least a rollbar. It just makes sense to me. But driving on a track, going 100%, without a helmet is just stupid. You will not change my mind on that.
>ok so who has more incidents?
That is a hard question to answer. Does Dexter have the same number of cars? You get more track time at Dexter so it may balance out. Dexter usually attracts more experienced drivers IMHO. Most incidents that I have witnessed at the PCA where mostly at weekends sponsered by other regions. Like the NNJR weekend. But I have to admit that in 2002 the PCA had a bad year for incidents, not sure about Dexter, but I certainly have witnessed and heard some stories for Dexter events as well...
I think it would be a better comparison to see how the Endless Battle guys are for safety when compared to the PCA.
Anyhow, I will still attend events like Dexter, PCA and the BMW club lapping. I just think it should be a requirement that people wear a helmet when lapping.
YMMV
-Patrick
Agreed.
>how can you say a PCAUCR event is safe at all when one of the directors ( botho von bose) stands at the end of a wet teflon pad, with beginner track people speeding down on him , with ABS disconnected and taunts them to kill him.
We are talking about two different things here. You are talking about one element of the skid pad day. I am talking about the PCA UCR DE days at Mosport or Shannonville. I would agree with you about the skid pad day, it does seem stupid to me as well to stand in front of the cars like that. Don't missunderstand me, I am not a UCR only type guy. I don't agree with everything they preach, but I do believe that you CAN recieve excellent instruction and also have very little chance of any incident when attending a PCA DE event.
Dexter is a different type of day all together. I believe the instructors are excellent, but when I was attending they had a really mixed bag of people on the track. Should an experienced driver in a race prepped Corvette be onthetrack at the same time with an inexperienced driver in a stock Civic or Golf with street tires? It's this mix that I believe has a larger potential for incident.
Dexter is fine, those Endless battle guys are probably fine, but I strongly believe that if you are on a race track, pushing ANY car to the limit you should have at very least a helmet on!!! Personally, as I got faster I didn't feel safe without a five point harness, race seat, and at least a rollbar. It just makes sense to me. But driving on a track, going 100%, without a helmet is just stupid. You will not change my mind on that.
>ok so who has more incidents?
That is a hard question to answer. Does Dexter have the same number of cars? You get more track time at Dexter so it may balance out. Dexter usually attracts more experienced drivers IMHO. Most incidents that I have witnessed at the PCA where mostly at weekends sponsered by other regions. Like the NNJR weekend. But I have to admit that in 2002 the PCA had a bad year for incidents, not sure about Dexter, but I certainly have witnessed and heard some stories for Dexter events as well...
I think it would be a better comparison to see how the Endless Battle guys are for safety when compared to the PCA.
Anyhow, I will still attend events like Dexter, PCA and the BMW club lapping. I just think it should be a requirement that people wear a helmet when lapping.
YMMV
-Patrick