harness & harness bar for daily use
11-11-2003, 02:00 PM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
harness & harness bar for daily use
As an ocasional track driver and most of the time road driver I would like to improve my chances in case of accident. I am considering to replace my three point safety belt with a harness or, if possible, keep both.
Having searched the forum, I understand that 3 point safety belts seem to be far from ideal in case of accident. It appears that the safest solution would be a 6 point 3" harness with a harness bar.
The easiest and most unpractical thing would be to install the harness+the bar BUT from my DAILY USER POINT OF VIEW:
1) It will be very unconfortable in the city ( where I only occasionally use the car)
2) It will be very unconfortable in short distances ( this happens quite often )
3) It condamns the back seats
4) It looks quite clumsy
In my youth ( many years ago ) I was racing a mini and driving w/harness all the time. I was - then -very happy with it.
It seems that one has to sacrifice confort against safety (my father always told me that it was " very difficult to ride to horses with the same b....".)
Any idea ? Has anyone found a way to combine both possiblities ?
Having searched the forum, I understand that 3 point safety belts seem to be far from ideal in case of accident. It appears that the safest solution would be a 6 point 3" harness with a harness bar.
The easiest and most unpractical thing would be to install the harness+the bar BUT from my DAILY USER POINT OF VIEW:
1) It will be very unconfortable in the city ( where I only occasionally use the car)
2) It will be very unconfortable in short distances ( this happens quite often )
3) It condamns the back seats
4) It looks quite clumsy
In my youth ( many years ago ) I was racing a mini and driving w/harness all the time. I was - then -very happy with it.
It seems that one has to sacrifice confort against safety (my father always told me that it was " very difficult to ride to horses with the same b....".)
Any idea ? Has anyone found a way to combine both possiblities ?
11-11-2003, 07:20 PM
#2
Race Director
Check with the local government regarding safety issues and non-OEM belts/harnesses. Here in the USA, most racing harnesses are NOT DOT (Dept. of transportation) approved, and therefore, you cannot use them on the street.
That said, I know there are some manufacturers that make DOT approved harnesses for the states.
Hope this helps,
-Z.
That said, I know there are some manufacturers that make DOT approved harnesses for the states.
Hope this helps,
-Z.
11-12-2003, 07:41 AM
#4
Technical Specialist
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
There has been discussion that a harness without a rollbar may be more dangerous than the 3 way belts in a rollover. With the 3 ways, you can fall out of the way if the roof is crushed, not so in a harness. Although I'm not picturing 996 seats, we don't allow harnesses on the track unless the seats are designed for them, with holes in the seat to route the shoulder straps. The concern is that they can ride up the sloped side of the seat.
So, if you really want to use harnesses, you probably should install a rollbar and upgrade the stock seat for one with holes for the shoulder harness - maybe a Porsche GT3 seat or the like. Around town, I use the 3 way along with my harness lap belt, as I also have a rollcage and would hate to bounce around against it in an accident.
So, if you really want to use harnesses, you probably should install a rollbar and upgrade the stock seat for one with holes for the shoulder harness - maybe a Porsche GT3 seat or the like. Around town, I use the 3 way along with my harness lap belt, as I also have a rollcage and would hate to bounce around against it in an accident.
11-12-2003, 10:58 AM
#5
Race Director
Bill: While CVR won't allow the use of harnesses without a race seat, and some other regions discourage the use of harness bars vs. roll bars. NNJR does allow for the use of harnesses / harness bars without race seats.
My setup is stock seats, harnesses, and a harness bar. The harnesses have an 'H' strap that help keep the harnesses from slipping off my shoulders. However, I am quite tall (6'2") and due to my shoulders sitting up higher in the seat, that also helps. While I have not had any accidents while wearing them, I have never felt any such 'slipping' that people speak about.
Regarding the whole roll-bar thing: in my car (944S2), the C-pillar is not really an issue in a rollover: most pictures of rolls 944's reveal that it is the A-pillar/windshield that typically collapses. A roll bar offers no extra reinforcement for the A-pillar. Thus, it is my opinion that a roll-bar in a 944 will not offer protection where it is needed more: between the A pillars.
The best solution: a full roll-cage, of course.
Ok, sorry for rambling....
-Z.
My setup is stock seats, harnesses, and a harness bar. The harnesses have an 'H' strap that help keep the harnesses from slipping off my shoulders. However, I am quite tall (6'2") and due to my shoulders sitting up higher in the seat, that also helps. While I have not had any accidents while wearing them, I have never felt any such 'slipping' that people speak about.
Regarding the whole roll-bar thing: in my car (944S2), the C-pillar is not really an issue in a rollover: most pictures of rolls 944's reveal that it is the A-pillar/windshield that typically collapses. A roll bar offers no extra reinforcement for the A-pillar. Thus, it is my opinion that a roll-bar in a 944 will not offer protection where it is needed more: between the A pillars.
The best solution: a full roll-cage, of course.
Ok, sorry for rambling....
-Z.
11-12-2003, 11:27 AM
#6
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bill and Z
I could install a GT3 (fixed?) seat, but I want to avoid the roll-cage.
Do you think that the seat + harness bar + harness will outperform the 3 point seat belt ? ( by the way, I was not planing a rollover, but who knows ? ).
Very last thing : Have you ever heard of someone shifting between the two ? ( harness for traveling, 3 points for the city )
I could install a GT3 (fixed?) seat, but I want to avoid the roll-cage.
Do you think that the seat + harness bar + harness will outperform the 3 point seat belt ? ( by the way, I was not planing a rollover, but who knows ? ).
Very last thing : Have you ever heard of someone shifting between the two ? ( harness for traveling, 3 points for the city )
11-12-2003, 11:57 AM
#7
Lifetime Rennlist Member
I think that full harness is safer that 3 points, with or without race seat and rollbar. The only exception would be if the seat would cause the shoulder straps to slip off the shoulders. Using the H style harness would help mitigate this with most seats. As far as the rollover, the G forces pushing you into the belts are way to high to allow you to slip out of the way with 3 points. Below is a document that went around some lists. It is a transcription of a safety presentation. (Those are not my comments, but those of the person who sent this around and did the transcription.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I faithfully transcribed one part of a 4 part document that Joe Marko distributed at Tech Fest West in LA earlier this year. He did say that he would like to put it up on his website. I have yet to see it. When reading this it is apparent to me that there are some sentences that don't make sense. And, I don't want to editorialize to correct them.
The few things in brackets are my comments.
[Begin Joe Marko's document]
#2-Myth - Aftermarket 4-5-6-point harness belts should not be used in cars without roll bars.
A world-renowned panel of SAE vehicle safety experts from GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, University of Michigan, and a leading harness belt manufacturer, were posed this question at the PRI show in December 2002. They unanimously suggested that a properly installed 4-5-6-point harness belt system would significantly reduce the likelihood of injury in a rollover accident when compared to a stock factory 3-point system in vehicles without roll bars. In addition they suggested that use of roll bars in primarily street driven cars could greatly increase risk to driver and passengers in daily driving. Their explanation for this is clear:
Most serious driver injury or fatality in rollover accidents (where 3-point factory systems are worn properly) occurs from head contact with the door frame resulting when a car flips over and crashes on the left edge of the roof. (Passenger injury occurs when to the right edge of the roof).
Such rollovers result in loads of 10g to 35g deceleration to the body eliminating the possibility of controlled "escape" by an occupant to "duck" from the collapsing roof.
Such deceleration will typically eject the occupant partially from a 3-point factory belt.
The endless loop of webbing from the factory 3-point system will allow a combination of released webbing from the endless loop of the webbing at the shoulder that passes through the lap, and webbing elongation that [when] combined will allow the body to move 50 to 100 mm upwards in the seat. This can allow significant contact with the doorframe.
Deceleration forces to the head in contact with the door frame can easily exceed 300g. Properly installed "static" 4-5-6-point systems installed to factory provided D and E, or C points [??] will significantly reduce degree of contact with the door frame or even eliminate contact, as there is minimal upper torso rotation. This configuration however allows sufficient lateral movement to be moved as allowed by external applied forces [??]. Factory seatbacks will flex a significant amount under load giving more occupant headspace as the seatback is pushed rearward.
4-5-6-point harness belts generally use 6% elongation webbing in the lap belt as opposed to 10-12% webbing in factory belts. This holds the occupant much tighter to the seat.
EMTs will confirm that very few serious injuries result from properly restrained individuals in rollover accidents. Greater injury occurs when occupants are not restrained properly and have fully or partially come out of their harness. Schroth has had reports of several rollover incidents where customers have contacted us and stated that the EMTs credit the harness belts to [for] the lack of serious injury.
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly
certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly increase vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any safety system including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could result in greater injury in a 1% incident. The 99% rule is the best guideline for all safety equipment.
INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD.
MOST ACCIDENTS OCCUR ON THE STREET WITHIN 5 MILES OF HOME!
[End of Joe Marko's document]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I faithfully transcribed one part of a 4 part document that Joe Marko distributed at Tech Fest West in LA earlier this year. He did say that he would like to put it up on his website. I have yet to see it. When reading this it is apparent to me that there are some sentences that don't make sense. And, I don't want to editorialize to correct them.
The few things in brackets are my comments.
[Begin Joe Marko's document]
#2-Myth - Aftermarket 4-5-6-point harness belts should not be used in cars without roll bars.
A world-renowned panel of SAE vehicle safety experts from GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, University of Michigan, and a leading harness belt manufacturer, were posed this question at the PRI show in December 2002. They unanimously suggested that a properly installed 4-5-6-point harness belt system would significantly reduce the likelihood of injury in a rollover accident when compared to a stock factory 3-point system in vehicles without roll bars. In addition they suggested that use of roll bars in primarily street driven cars could greatly increase risk to driver and passengers in daily driving. Their explanation for this is clear:
Most serious driver injury or fatality in rollover accidents (where 3-point factory systems are worn properly) occurs from head contact with the door frame resulting when a car flips over and crashes on the left edge of the roof. (Passenger injury occurs when to the right edge of the roof).
Such rollovers result in loads of 10g to 35g deceleration to the body eliminating the possibility of controlled "escape" by an occupant to "duck" from the collapsing roof.
Such deceleration will typically eject the occupant partially from a 3-point factory belt.
The endless loop of webbing from the factory 3-point system will allow a combination of released webbing from the endless loop of the webbing at the shoulder that passes through the lap, and webbing elongation that [when] combined will allow the body to move 50 to 100 mm upwards in the seat. This can allow significant contact with the doorframe.
Deceleration forces to the head in contact with the door frame can easily exceed 300g. Properly installed "static" 4-5-6-point systems installed to factory provided D and E, or C points [??] will significantly reduce degree of contact with the door frame or even eliminate contact, as there is minimal upper torso rotation. This configuration however allows sufficient lateral movement to be moved as allowed by external applied forces [??]. Factory seatbacks will flex a significant amount under load giving more occupant headspace as the seatback is pushed rearward.
4-5-6-point harness belts generally use 6% elongation webbing in the lap belt as opposed to 10-12% webbing in factory belts. This holds the occupant much tighter to the seat.
EMTs will confirm that very few serious injuries result from properly restrained individuals in rollover accidents. Greater injury occurs when occupants are not restrained properly and have fully or partially come out of their harness. Schroth has had reports of several rollover incidents where customers have contacted us and stated that the EMTs credit the harness belts to [for] the lack of serious injury.
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly
certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly increase vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any safety system including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could result in greater injury in a 1% incident. The 99% rule is the best guideline for all safety equipment.
INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD.
MOST ACCIDENTS OCCUR ON THE STREET WITHIN 5 MILES OF HOME!
[End of Joe Marko's document]
Trending Topics
11-12-2003, 12:08 PM
#8
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mark, that's an answer !
Let me contribute with an article that you probably have read before.
on 5 vs 6 point harnesses
http://www.opentracking.com/5_pts_vs_6_pts.htm
Let me contribute with an article that you probably have read before.
on 5 vs 6 point harnesses
http://www.opentracking.com/5_pts_vs_6_pts.htm
11-12-2003, 12:33 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
You asked about who uses combined 3 and 6 point use. I do. I have the BK harness bar and 6 point Shroth harness. Regular driving, the bar and harness are out, and my kids can use the rear seat. On track, it takes less than 30 minutes to attach the harness bar and the 6 points.
With regards to roll overs, I agree with Z-Man. The coupe C pillar is good enough, until I get a roll cage if/when I really get serious.
With regards to roll overs, I agree with Z-Man. The coupe C pillar is good enough, until I get a roll cage if/when I really get serious.
11-12-2003, 01:01 PM
#11
Race Director
boqueron:
I use my 3-point seat belts on the roads, and my 6-point harness on the track and during autocross. Since I don't have kids and don't use the rear seat, the harness bar stays in all the time. Most of the harness components I remove at the end of the season.
Mark: Thanks for posting that information. I never thought a roll-bar would be an issue on the street: I guess if I do install one, I'll be driving around with my helmet on the streets!
-Z.
I use my 3-point seat belts on the roads, and my 6-point harness on the track and during autocross. Since I don't have kids and don't use the rear seat, the harness bar stays in all the time. Most of the harness components I remove at the end of the season.
Mark: Thanks for posting that information. I never thought a roll-bar would be an issue on the street: I guess if I do install one, I'll be driving around with my helmet on the streets!
-Z.
11-12-2003, 01:18 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
Originally posted by boqueron
...does the BK harness bar cause any amage to the back seats area ?
...does the BK harness bar cause any amage to the back seats area ?
11-12-2003, 03:51 PM
#14
Pro
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Radical Racer
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly increase vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any safety system including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could result in greater injury in a 1% incident.
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly increase vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any safety system including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could result in greater injury in a 1% incident.