smokey

John, I agree that it should be up to the individual, but when a rule is imposed that clearly makes the occupants less safe, i.e. passing the belts over the bar rather than attaching them directly, it's gratuitously dangerous. Since harnesses cannot be used on the street, harness bars have only one purpose: DE and non-racing track days. All racing groups require a roll bar or cage built to specific standards, so harness bars are a non-issue in racing. DE organizations can be proactive: our PCA region (UCR) has specific rules against Fuchs replicas on track, and Rennsport region specifies the minimum ride height for the front end of 944's with aluminum control arms, both presumably based on bitter experience. I suppose harness bar specs based on sound engineering will have to await future incidents. DE lap times in the top run groups (I speculate, because of course no one actually knows) are probably close to race lap times , so any incident can be serious. Oil spills, broken suspensions, and red mist also occur in DE. Anyway, I agree that one simple rule for harness bars would do it: roll bar stock acting as a beam, ie. with no possibility of the mount rotating at impact, would be a very simple, straightforward rule. Or equivalent strength and stability based on an engineering alalysis. Whether to allow shoulder harnesses with stock seats is probably a political question, and will take one or two incidents to resolve.

ColorChange

Redlineman:
While I agree with most of your observations, your comment that the sub belt is difficult to adjust tightly, if I read you correctly, is not quite right. What you do is clip into the sub first, then the loose sides and then the loose shoulders. You crank down the sides (this still leaves the sub too low), and then crank the shoulders. This final shoulder crank down effectively tightens the sub to almost as tight as the shoulders and sides, if the sub was at the right position (too low) in the beginning. Now, admittedly, you have to do this over and over again until the sub belt is the right length, but when you so it right and are finished, the sub is damn tight as are the sides and shoulders. Sound right?

RedlineMan

Ummm...

Yeh, of course it sounds right. That is the way you do it... except in a 2+driver car or other circumstance where there is no one setting that works perfectly for everyone. Then all this becomes trickier. This is a circumstance that we have to deal with in recreational driving, but something overlooked by many people making the rules.

My main point was to question the sub as a means to DIRECTLY keep the driver from moving, and therefor to question the difference made between 5 & 6 point subs. If the sub keeps the lap belt low, then it has done its job in a sedan.

ColorChange

OK agreed. It is really difficult if someone else wants to get in and drive. Just wanted to be sure we were on the same page. I agree on the prupose of the anti-sub belt in a sedan.