mark kibort

Peter, thats very presumptious! never ever said to slow enough to be able to go WOT in any part of the corner. Look, ill say it one more time.. the only thing i am advising and advocating is the use of WOT in one lower gear, when you ARE already WOT on this track . I'm NOT referring to any exits of any turns at lime rock. ONLY WOT areas. (are we good now? )

Dave, look, this is a discussion... from peter's response he still doesnt get the message, advice or physics that ive presented. He has already referenced the "broad torque curve) for which means nothing in the land of acceleration! Anyway, its a friendly discussion, nothing more. Keep it on subject, dont run your personal agenda. there are many ways to get a car around the track faster.. this is just one that makes a lot of sense...... thank you, in advance.

Again, this is misunderstanding of what i wrote #3. this is not "hitting rev limiters" , #2, no WOT on the curves, and #1, capabilities and deficiencies of torque vs HP curves vs acceleration potential.

Please read my post or posts again and it should be very clear. We are only talking about, with new drivers, using 2nd in the low RPM straight only sections of the first 3 turns with a GT4, and the faster drivers, using a lower gear, 3rd, for the straights after the no-name straight. ( vs using 4th). what this does is give 20 to 50 more HP for a min of 8 full seconds of already WOT areas of the track. its pretty simple.

no curves, no banging rev limiters, no upsetting the car ..... only more utilizing the engine.

winders

I am not making any comments about how fast or slow you should be going at any point on the track at Lime Rock. I don't know the track or the car. All I am saying is that seems quite strange to me to be at ~4700 RPM in a car with with a 7400 RPM redline at the point on the track when you are accelerating out of the corner. At least if the horsepower peak is near or at redline.

Why can't you be one gear lower and still manage the throttle as to not overwhelm the tires in the corner? It is most assuredly a fact that you can accelerate faster in 2nd gear at 6000 RPM than 3rd gear at ~4700 RPM. At some point you can straighten the steering wheel and take advantage of the gearing and the power.

MSTACH

I think spinner wheel is the way to go

JP66

First, let me address an earlier question you had. Lime Rock is more than 50 years old. Every inch of the track has been analyzed over and over and over and there are numerous debates that have continued for decades. However, most everyone agrees the first series of turns are critical and all closely linked. Regulars at the track name the turns and they include Big Bend (which is really two turns), the Left Hander, and the Right Hander. The entry into Big Bend is so important it can change your time thru the whole initial series dramatically. Peter spent an hour with me analyzing the time I was losing in the first 500 feet because of my entry into Big Bend. The OP used a different entry than the entry he used to use in his 991 and different than the entry I now use, but our cars are similar (although he has significant advantage both in power and grip) but the difference in entry into Big Bend resulted in a 1.4 second time loss which you can see in the stills from the time posted of 23 for me and 25 for him. . . just from the entry . . . without discussing gear changes.

That was the point of the stills . . the difference in time . . and for the record Veloc(Dave?) made the same observation and suggestion earlier in the season on a different video from the OP.

Second, driving Lime Rock well requires continuously balancing your car for the next turn. The entry into Big Bend is very fast, too fast for a shift to 2nd gear without either over slowing or upsetting the balance. After Big Bend there is a brief straight In theory you could shift to 2nd gear at that point, but just as you and Mark are certain there is time to be gained, I am equally certain the time lost shifting down and then back within 2 secs after entering NoName straight would result in a net total loss, and more importantly than what I think the fact is 3 professional race car drivers, including the 2015 SCCA Spec Miata National Champion (who is my personal coach), have driven my car around Lime Rock. None of them shifted into 2nd gear between Big Bend and NoName straight.

That is why the still photo shows 3rd gear and 4700 RPM because it's the fastest way around the track.

paradocs98

Holy smokes! I haven't been on rennlist for a few days and I see that this thread has ex-ploded! It's a classic West Coast vs East Coast hip-hop battle, Tupac (Winders and Kibort) vs Biggie Smalls (Krause and VR).

Good discussion, everyone. Trying to take it all in and assess it for what it's worth. Peter is analyzing my AiM data, which I really appreciate, and I'm actively working on getting a pro coach like Elivan Goulart or Simon K in the right seat. Should make a world of difference. They say Lime Rock is easy to learn but almost impossible to master. Five years of doing this, 60+ trackdays, 15-20 of which at LRP, and I feel like I have so much to learn. Wish I could do this every weekend to build more effectively, but life and career take priority...

mark kibort

first of all , i think we all understand that you are balancing the car after big bend and in the little straight areas. to winders point, if you downshifted correctly going into big bend, sure you would be in the 6k range on the exit only to have short 1 second hits of power. dont worry about the upshift at the exit onto no-name, its going to be mostly 3-4th anyway. so i think we agree, if you are coming out of those little turns in 3rd, its probably ok.. the OP might see some gains but the fastest drivers, not so much.

also, dont compare to miatas and the "2nd" gear.. all transmissions are different.

what i was talking about and to Winders point was going into "UPHILL" .. a quick downshift.... and then WOT application of throttle in 3rd FROM 4th entering from "no-name" will get you 20-50 more hp because by the DATA, the speeds NEVER reach higher than 95-100mph, which is the sweetspot for power for 3rd gear in the cayman GTS. this is not on any turn, or any point to upset the car AND someone already spoke of that section being debatable of which gear to be in. remember, if you modulate your throttle in the "wheelie" area and keep WOT when possible, you are gaining near 8 seconds up to the "DOWNHILL" section. there is no logical racing reason to keep the car in a RPM range of 4700 to 6000rpm when you could be in the 6000rpm to 7600rpm range where the car is DESIGNED to make the most HP.

remember, HP is directly related to acceleration , NOT engine "torque". this is a very easy change that willl pay dividends and not cost you anything as far as control. its a no brainer gainer!



Hahaha.. i know huh! i think the "west coasters" here are just staying completely away from the nuances of the track and only focusing on HP utilization on the part of the track that can be best optimized with engine power.
im positive there are plenty of racers and cars that use the power range starting from going up the hill. this is a fact. now, the question is can your coach help you take advantage of the power available and put it to the ground? that's what i would help with if i was asked to optimize for time here.
you have already seen how the line and keeping speed helps.. imagine how maximizing acceleration in this fairly long area would help.
I'm already convinced, with no other changes.. .25 to .5 seconds min.
the data already suggest this too!

now... of to the RACE at Thunnderhill this weekend!!!!l... you want a fast track!!!! now THAT is a fast track!

mark kibort

Here is the net -net of what I'm saying here.....

go to :43 seconds on the video. (or the lap about) downshift to 3rd going up the hill..... you never go over 100mph.. that puts you under redline, but in the sweetspot of the HP range . currently you are at 4700rpm to 6000rpm, you would then be 6000rpm to 7500rpm with a redline of what, 7600?
this is a 20-50hp gain with NOTHING changed to your driving at all.


Peter suggests that there is a "broad torque curve" so it wont matter....this means little to nothing in racing. you want to be in the gear that optimizes HP not engine torque.

so, use 3rd gear in the GT4 starting from the end of no-name all the way to the west-bend curve or even down the main straight. this will give you 8 to 11 seconds of a 20-50hp increase to the wheels!

try it .. you wont be disappointed!

your lap is much faster, but look at your video from 1:29.... you start to up the hill at a 50hp deficit vs being in 3rd gear. you also never get much above 6000rpm all the way to the main straight entrance. again, even for you , that's seconds of 20-50 hp more on the straights, full throttle, no turning. (edit: for you , you would shift up before final turn to the main straight as you are entering it at 6k right now anyway.... so even with that, you could gain a full 8 seconds of higher HP after no-name straight.

here is your screen shot going up the hill ...

JP66

Mark,

This is the last response I will ever give to you.


You are not smart and what you say is foolish and I'm truly sorry the Internet gives you a voice.

Gofishracing

Two schools of thought are prevalent when talking about positioning of hands on the steering wheel. The old school wisdom was to position hands at 10 and 2 o’clock. As air bags became common, this led to the wrist and arm factures when air bags deployed and arms were flung into rearview mirrors or A-pillars. To avoid that occurrence, many safety advocates now recommend positioning hands at 9 and 3 o’clock on the steering wheel.

Hand-over-hand maneuvers during turning should be avoided to prevent arms from being in front of a deploying airbag in the event of a crash. Serious injuries may result during such occurrences.

Last Updated: April 08, 2013

And yes the age of tires matter.
From my point of view the closer I can stay to 9+3 the more possible change I have of recovering. There are different muscle groups that are involved that an informed person to clearly explain.

And your wheel had better be straight when you go up the uphill no matter what gear you are in.

Gofishracing

I know this is changing the subject but driving Lime Rock the most important thing to learn is recovering. Easy track to learn - impossible track to master & very little room for error. In an easy search I just found this link below. Look for the blue dots at Lime Rock also as reference points as discussed before. Love the skid pad there
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_steering

car_slave

paradocs98

Well played!

Gofishracing

hot stuff.

Difool

Entertaining stuff! I'm coming to terms with this track myself and have gone from the track just plain scaring me to actually learning to drive it and building some consistency. Flirting with that damned 59.

I've always struggled on whether to be in 3rd going into the uphill or not. I know I'd be in my sweet spot on the power band going into west bend, downhill, and then pulling onto the straight, but psychologically I end up a touch slower into the uphill, so it hasn't been clear-cut. I figured in 4th I just need to keep the car calm and work on carrying more speed, so that's what I tried this last day. Now I want to try to get back there one more day this year. Maybe with SCDA at the end of October?

https://vimeo.com/184200561

Anyway, here's another vid, if there's any feedback (yeah yeah, not sure when that right hand started moving around on the wheel, will take care of that!).

mark kibort

Joe, here is my last bit of advice to you ! Learn how to add (your math is all wrong in that prior post check the data.. and "miata" gearing doesnt equal cayman gearing. ) Get a few more years of experience.. run some fast lap times and then get back to us... sad that you cant be reached by those with many more years, and seconds of faster lap times to try and help you....
even more sad that you think this list is a platform for your ignorance and rudeness.

any seasoned racer or instructor would see my simple advice and logical analysis as just that and nothing more.. you should be ashamed of that last post.

all ive ever said here is that from the end of no name to the start finish straight, to use 3rd rather than 4th. if you don't want to try it, that's your prerogative . it's a discussion here , and that's an exchange of ideas.. that's all . no need to be rude.

BUT, if i am "not smart" you tell me how a near 1 or even 1/2 meter-per- second/per-second advantage over an 8-11 second period of time, isn't at minimal, significant!
go ahead.. you can use your "math". this is YOUR data!

It is I that is sorry that a guy as inexperienced as you has a voice to criticize and mock what they dont understand, and has the nerve to judge ANYONE here .
sit back and take in the info here that is actually valuable and presented by folks that are a LOT smarter,more experienced than you are, or even how smart you think you are .

EDIT... at 1m/s/s over 8 seconds, its near 70 feet.. thats a gain of near 4-5 car lengths at 11 seconds for the OP, thats 90 feet. even at half that rate of accel diff, its several car lengths. Now, thats when you use "Math" . you know, the stuff that us "not very smart" guys use.