Expired race seats for PCA DE?
09-02-2016, 08:21 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
So then you open the pandora's box, right
suits for racers but shorts for DE?
stock skinny lap belts are ok, and so are 30 year old seats, but if you have a racing seat it needs to be 5 years old . racing belts? same thing.
whats next, making sure tires are less than 6 years old too?
We all know the objective, but i dont think a beginner in DE is going that fast, or much faster than he does on the street, so stock stuff , with a helmet, is a good idea. the logic is that as we go faster, and get better, the chance of a wreck goes up.(but usually, there are lots of wrecks in the beginner groups), so that logic goes out the window... maybe its about speed? no, because you can have a racer in a spec miata running a lot slower top speed wise to a DE guy in his new C7 corvette.
I don't have the answers, but i think in DE, i don;t think you should have more than a helmet and any stock stuff. any aftermarket gear shouldn't need an expiration limit like race cars.
Its a good debate, but how far do you go with DE to make them safe, but not burden to the point where they wont show up. do belts or seats really need to expire? how about an inspection? i think that rule is for race cars that might be stored in the sun for 5 years.. Yes, if you have that car, replace the harnesses every 5 years for DE'ing or racing. But for most DE cars, do we have to match racing car standards? I personally don't think so.. And if you do, where does it end. All cars would need fire systems, kill switches, suits harnesses, etc regardless of race or DE? After alll, fire, impact, etc damage and crash effect doesnt know "whether its a DE or a race" , right?
suits for racers but shorts for DE?
stock skinny lap belts are ok, and so are 30 year old seats, but if you have a racing seat it needs to be 5 years old . racing belts? same thing.
whats next, making sure tires are less than 6 years old too?
We all know the objective, but i dont think a beginner in DE is going that fast, or much faster than he does on the street, so stock stuff , with a helmet, is a good idea. the logic is that as we go faster, and get better, the chance of a wreck goes up.(but usually, there are lots of wrecks in the beginner groups), so that logic goes out the window... maybe its about speed? no, because you can have a racer in a spec miata running a lot slower top speed wise to a DE guy in his new C7 corvette.
I don't have the answers, but i think in DE, i don;t think you should have more than a helmet and any stock stuff. any aftermarket gear shouldn't need an expiration limit like race cars.
Its a good debate, but how far do you go with DE to make them safe, but not burden to the point where they wont show up. do belts or seats really need to expire? how about an inspection? i think that rule is for race cars that might be stored in the sun for 5 years.. Yes, if you have that car, replace the harnesses every 5 years for DE'ing or racing. But for most DE cars, do we have to match racing car standards? I personally don't think so.. And if you do, where does it end. All cars would need fire systems, kill switches, suits harnesses, etc regardless of race or DE? After alll, fire, impact, etc damage and crash effect doesnt know "whether its a DE or a race" , right?
p.s. Hooked on Driving does check helmets and they are strict about it. That said, even if you forgot to update, they'll kindly rent you one. Hard to do with a seat.
09-02-2016, 08:29 PM
#32
To imply safety without any data is worse. I can run 15 year old OEM 3 point seat belts, but a 6 year old 6 point harness is no good? Would someone like to point to the data behind that safety rule? I can run 20 year old OEM seats, but not a 7 year old race seat? What data shows that one is more unsafe for HPDE? If we were talking about racing, then I can certainly start to see why you'd have requirements (though the time limited ones seem a product of companies wanting to sell more product than actual data).
What data do you have to show the PCA is safer? Perhaps the implication that you are safer because of strict rules actually leads to more reckless driving?
You shouldn't imply that strict rules with no basis in fact produce better results.
What data do you have to show the PCA is safer? Perhaps the implication that you are safer because of strict rules actually leads to more reckless driving?
You shouldn't imply that strict rules with no basis in fact produce better results.
09-02-2016, 08:41 PM
#33
Registered User
Out of curiosity, whats the scoop with all the harnesses for sale here and on other porsche sites, listed as "out of date but fine for HPDE"?
As a beginner, I wanted to up my safety from the stock 1988 930... which doesn't feel too safe, and I wouldn't want to test its stock restraint systems...
The goal was to slowly climb up the safety ladder...
Rollbar almost in, just adding some additional measures so it doesn't punch through the floor (bolted to B-pillar seatbelt mounts, and floor rails)...
Getting new seat is out, the out of date Suzukas will have to work, I can easily weld in an adjustable back support...
New harness... Ok. Just an unexpected expense...
For the seasoned HPDE pro's, is the expectation that the passenger seat have the same cost harnesses as the driver? IE. Can I get a schroth for the driver, and entry level simpson for the passenger?
I can say for a fact that folks have different seats for the driver and passengers... The drivers seats are usually way more expensive...
As a beginner, I wanted to up my safety from the stock 1988 930... which doesn't feel too safe, and I wouldn't want to test its stock restraint systems...
The goal was to slowly climb up the safety ladder...
Rollbar almost in, just adding some additional measures so it doesn't punch through the floor (bolted to B-pillar seatbelt mounts, and floor rails)...
Getting new seat is out, the out of date Suzukas will have to work, I can easily weld in an adjustable back support...
New harness... Ok. Just an unexpected expense...
For the seasoned HPDE pro's, is the expectation that the passenger seat have the same cost harnesses as the driver? IE. Can I get a schroth for the driver, and entry level simpson for the passenger?
I can say for a fact that folks have different seats for the driver and passengers... The drivers seats are usually way more expensive...
09-02-2016, 08:47 PM
#34
More often than not those advertisements are based on
a) trying to make a $
b) ignorance
c) a+b
Regarding the PCA rule of equality - let that be your guide. Some regions may also have enhancements.
Disclaimer.
I have factory LWBs but only 6-point on the driver's side. If I give someone a ride I use the OEM 3-points and tone it down.
a) trying to make a $
b) ignorance
c) a+b
Regarding the PCA rule of equality - let that be your guide. Some regions may also have enhancements.
Disclaimer.
I have factory LWBs but only 6-point on the driver's side. If I give someone a ride I use the OEM 3-points and tone it down.
09-02-2016, 09:12 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by bpu699
For the seasoned HPDE pro's, is the expectation that the passenger seat have the same cost harnesses as the driver? IE. Can I get a schroth for the driver, and entry level simpson for the passenger?
That being said, if the belts have the same certification, but just the hardware is not as slick, it shouldn't matter too much. But on the seat, well, let your conscience decide.
09-02-2016, 10:27 PM
#36
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2014
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I've only had my harnesses checked at certain PCA events in NJ and WGI. Never SCDA, Chin, BMWCCA, other PCAs, etc.
They expired last month so now I need to spend hundreds of dollars on new harnesses to replace ones that have rarely seen use, and are either parked in a garage, or outside in a car with tinted windows. Yet 20 year old 3 points are just fine. Zero logic.
They expired last month so now I need to spend hundreds of dollars on new harnesses to replace ones that have rarely seen use, and are either parked in a garage, or outside in a car with tinted windows. Yet 20 year old 3 points are just fine. Zero logic.
09-03-2016, 11:41 AM
#37
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
So then you open the pandora's box, right
suits for racers but shorts for DE?
stock skinny lap belts are ok, and so are 30 year old seats, but if you have a racing seat it needs to be 5 years old . racing belts? same thing.
whats next, making sure tires are less than 6 years old too?
We all know the objective, but i dont think a beginner in DE is going that fast, or much faster than he does on the street, so stock stuff , with a helmet, is a good idea. the logic is that as we go faster, and get better, the chance of a wreck goes up.(but usually, there are lots of wrecks in the beginner groups), so that logic goes out the window... maybe its about speed? no, because you can have a racer in a spec miata running a lot slower top speed wise to a DE guy in his new C7 corvette.
suits for racers but shorts for DE?
stock skinny lap belts are ok, and so are 30 year old seats, but if you have a racing seat it needs to be 5 years old . racing belts? same thing.
whats next, making sure tires are less than 6 years old too?
We all know the objective, but i dont think a beginner in DE is going that fast, or much faster than he does on the street, so stock stuff , with a helmet, is a good idea. the logic is that as we go faster, and get better, the chance of a wreck goes up.(but usually, there are lots of wrecks in the beginner groups), so that logic goes out the window... maybe its about speed? no, because you can have a racer in a spec miata running a lot slower top speed wise to a DE guy in his new C7 corvette.
C'mon! I'm a consistent torque wrench guy on the tech line! I haven't witnessed many people getting booted this past year but I think we do point out more things than other regions in terms of future maintenance.
To imply safety without any data is worse. I can run 15 year old OEM 3 point seat belts, but a 6 year old 6 point harness is no good? Would someone like to point to the data behind that safety rule? I can run 20 year old OEM seats, but not a 7 year old race seat? What data shows that one is more unsafe for HPDE? If we were talking about racing, then I can certainly start to see why you'd have requirements (though the time limited ones seem a product of companies wanting to sell more product than actual data).
What data do you have to show the PCA is safer? Perhaps the implication that you are safer because of strict rules actually leads to more reckless driving?
You shouldn't imply that strict rules with no basis in fact produce better results.
What data do you have to show the PCA is safer? Perhaps the implication that you are safer because of strict rules actually leads to more reckless driving?
You shouldn't imply that strict rules with no basis in fact produce better results.
I think if anyone lets peer pressure get in the way of safety they need to take a good long hard look in the mirror.
09-03-2016, 04:31 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Re different qualities of seats and belts: So, my life isn't worth $350 but yours is?
Novice showed up with six points and tub seat for himself and three points for me. To this day, i hold it against him.
Novice showed up with six points and tub seat for himself and three points for me. To this day, i hold it against him.
09-03-2016, 04:40 PM
#39
09-03-2016, 05:19 PM
#40
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
09-03-2016, 06:32 PM
#41
It is national minimum std. Instructors are taught to recognize that; at least in the school I went through.
09-04-2016, 12:30 AM
#44
Burning Brakes
can run 15 year old OEM 3 point seat belts, but a 6 year old 6 point harness is no good? ........... I can run 20 year old OEM seats, but not a 7 year old race seat? .............. If we were talking about racing, then I can certainly start to see why you'd have requirements...........
09-04-2016, 09:49 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Dates
I don't see anything (here) about dates on the harness in the pca
I have seat back brace and expired fia seats, and probably expired harnesses.
nothing I've seen on a tech sheet about harness dates either.
-so this rule is only for some clubs?
I have seat back brace and expired fia seats, and probably expired harnesses.
nothing I've seen on a tech sheet about harness dates either.
-so this rule is only for some clubs?